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re: Avenger: AoU Reviews (**MAJOR SPOILERS**)
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:53 pm to Freauxzen
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:53 pm to Freauxzen
Exactly what you just said, but ultron outright states it. Nothing was subtle about it (kind of the same with Prometheus)
And that's why I think it's interesting to watch ex machina so close to seeing this
Look, it's a fun movie, I just don't think it's very stimulating in that sense. I see loads of unrealized potential with ultron
And that's why I think it's interesting to watch ex machina so close to seeing this
Look, it's a fun movie, I just don't think it's very stimulating in that sense. I see loads of unrealized potential with ultron
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:54 pm to Fewer Kilometers
quote:
It would've been nice if we had seen the Avengers as a fully formed team for just one film. Instead we saw them infight until they were a team, then infight until they broke up. Now we have the next version of Avengers, but they'll have minimal exposure before we get to the Infinity Wars, where we'll have a mish-mash of the two teams forming a third version of the Avengers.
Agreed.
And I really want to see this team as well. It'sa nice mix from WM to Vision and Witch, and Falcon. I'm kind of disappointed we won't get to see them in action. That's a major blow to the film's ending, even as a setup. What is the setup there for if we never see the results?
(Although I'm sure we'll get part of the team in Civil War)
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:55 pm to DelU249
quote:
Exactly what you just said, but ultron outright states it. Nothing was subtle about it (kind of the same with Prometheus)
And that's why I think it's interesting to watch ex machina so close to seeing this
Look, it's a fun movie, I just don't think it's very stimulating in that sense. I see loads of unrealized potential with ultron
Fair point. I did want more of Ultron too. He was an underutilized villain.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:56 pm to abellsujr
quote:
And maybe a better way to phrase my views on Stark was to say his character took his arrogance to a whole new level.
It did, to an extent. My only problem with that is that was seemingly glossed over by the end of the movie when really it should have been played up more given the impending Civil War.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 12:58 pm to Dr RC
It's actually a good plot device which is why it's been used so often
Having stark create ultron was also a good idea as there is a lot that can happen between the characters, but ultimately there isn't
It was a turn your brain off kind of movie, and that's fine, but with the AI plot and a villain of such large scope (the eradication of mankind) I just think it should've been more than a 2 hour action sequence
The action scenes are good (I really think the opening sequence is the most satisfying)
This lacking of subtext doesn't weigh on the movie, it just could've been done better in my opinion
The only 2 things that detracted from the movie for me were the big ones
Action was exhausting at times
Iron man is a taint
Having stark create ultron was also a good idea as there is a lot that can happen between the characters, but ultimately there isn't
It was a turn your brain off kind of movie, and that's fine, but with the AI plot and a villain of such large scope (the eradication of mankind) I just think it should've been more than a 2 hour action sequence
The action scenes are good (I really think the opening sequence is the most satisfying)
This lacking of subtext doesn't weigh on the movie, it just could've been done better in my opinion
The only 2 things that detracted from the movie for me were the big ones
Action was exhausting at times
Iron man is a taint
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:00 pm to Freauxzen
BTW did you see ex machina? The visuals (not talking about sfx) are amazing and really you forget that the majority of the movie is 2 people talking
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:01 pm to DelU249
quote:
BTW did you see ex machina? The visuals (not talking about sfx) are amazing and really you forget that the majority of the movie is 2 people talking
Nope but it's high on my list. Glad to hear it lives up to some of that hype.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:03 pm to DelU249
quote:
It was a turn your brain off kind of movie, and that's fine, but with the AI plot and a villain of such large scope (the eradication of mankind) I just think it should've been more than a 2 hour action sequence
Well if it makes you feel better, it was longer than that w/more subtext but the big biz gods demand more repeat showing in theaters thus an hour got lopped off.
quote:
Iron man is a taint
He's ALWAYS been a jackass. I don't get why people seem to ignore this. Our intro to him in Iron Man 1 is him taking a reporter that is critical of his company's dirty arms dealing, bedding her, and then being a complete tool by having his secretary who he knows is sprung on him boot the girl for the house.
That right there sums him up perfectly. He does whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and he gives not one frick about what other think while he's doing it.
He just happens to pull his a-hole moves with style and charisma so people tend forgive his douchebaggery. Hell, if he wasn't a billionaire he'd be the friend you've known since grade school that you are scared to introduce to new people for fear of him making you look bad.
This post was edited on 5/4/15 at 1:08 pm
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:06 pm to VaBamaMan
quote:
VaBamaMan
Not to bring it back up, but it seems some people want to talk more about Ultron, the AI, etc. Shall we dig into that long post of yours?
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:09 pm to Freauxzen
There's only a few actual plots in fiction, so that's no a real deal-breaker for me. Man v. Machine. All that changes is the details. And it's not like this movie hinges on plot.
As did I, but I was even more interested in its take on what makes a hero and the nature of sacrifice. Which leads us to one of my favorite parts of the film, the contrast between Black Widow and Hawkeye.
First, let's remember that they come from the same place to the Avengers. They were SHIELD agents who got caught up in the super hero stuff. They are ordinary people fighting alongside supermen.
For Widow, she chooses the path of sacrifice and heroism. She was essentially forced into being a spy and her back story is one of her being denied agency and the choice to be anything but a killing machine. She resents that, but right at the final battle, she pushes Banner into a hole to turn him into the Hulk. She chooses to deny herself the "normal" life that was being offered to her (and thought she had already been denied). Of course, there's the matter that her choice denies Banner of his, but that's a later issue. To be a hero, Natasha denies herself the trappings of an ordinary life. And at the end of the film, she's one of the few to stick with Cap as an Avenger.
OTOH, Hawkeye has a secret family. He's made choices to be a hero, but has also gone to extreme lengths to have a "normal" life, one that he is always working on (hence all of his home improvement projects). After he carries himself to the evacuation car, he collapses. He's done, physically and emotionally (also, let's point out that every cue in the film was he was the one to die -- right down to it seeming like One Last Job). Anyway, he sees the kid in peril, and he makes himself get up and go rescue him, at the cost of Quicksilver's life (plot twist!).
His reaction is that this cost is not worth it. He goes home to be with his wife and family because those are the things that matter to him. What worth is saving the world if it costs your kids their father? The cost of heroism becomes to high, and he cashes out.
ETA: Now, Black widow will continue with the Avengers. She will be, by definition, a Hero. However, if you asked the characters, they would say that Clint is the better Person. Natasha self-conceptualizes as a monster, and Clint as a regular dude. But he's the only one with the courage to do what has to be done, and then walk away.
quote:
I saw all of the parenthood/duality/evolution stuff.
As did I, but I was even more interested in its take on what makes a hero and the nature of sacrifice. Which leads us to one of my favorite parts of the film, the contrast between Black Widow and Hawkeye.
First, let's remember that they come from the same place to the Avengers. They were SHIELD agents who got caught up in the super hero stuff. They are ordinary people fighting alongside supermen.
For Widow, she chooses the path of sacrifice and heroism. She was essentially forced into being a spy and her back story is one of her being denied agency and the choice to be anything but a killing machine. She resents that, but right at the final battle, she pushes Banner into a hole to turn him into the Hulk. She chooses to deny herself the "normal" life that was being offered to her (and thought she had already been denied). Of course, there's the matter that her choice denies Banner of his, but that's a later issue. To be a hero, Natasha denies herself the trappings of an ordinary life. And at the end of the film, she's one of the few to stick with Cap as an Avenger.
OTOH, Hawkeye has a secret family. He's made choices to be a hero, but has also gone to extreme lengths to have a "normal" life, one that he is always working on (hence all of his home improvement projects). After he carries himself to the evacuation car, he collapses. He's done, physically and emotionally (also, let's point out that every cue in the film was he was the one to die -- right down to it seeming like One Last Job). Anyway, he sees the kid in peril, and he makes himself get up and go rescue him, at the cost of Quicksilver's life (plot twist!).
His reaction is that this cost is not worth it. He goes home to be with his wife and family because those are the things that matter to him. What worth is saving the world if it costs your kids their father? The cost of heroism becomes to high, and he cashes out.
ETA: Now, Black widow will continue with the Avengers. She will be, by definition, a Hero. However, if you asked the characters, they would say that Clint is the better Person. Natasha self-conceptualizes as a monster, and Clint as a regular dude. But he's the only one with the courage to do what has to be done, and then walk away.
This post was edited on 5/4/15 at 1:13 pm
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:14 pm to Baloo
quote:
As did I, but I was even more interested in its take on what makes a hero and the nature of sacrifice. Which leads us to one of my favorite parts of the film, the contrast between Black Widow and Hawkeye.
First, let's remember that they come from the same place to the Avengers. They were SHIELD agents who got caught up in the super hero stuff. They are ordinary people fighting alongside supermen.
For Widow, she chooses the path of sacrifice and heroism. She was essentially forced into being a spy and her back story is one of her being denied agency and the choice to be anything but a killing machine. She resents that, but right at the final battle, she pushes Banner into a hole to turn him into the Hulk. She chooses to deny herself the "normal" life that was being offered to her (and thought she had already been denied). Of course, there's the matter that her choice denies Banner of his, but that's a later issue. To be a hero, Natasha denies herself the trappings of an ordinary life. And at the end of the film, she's one of the few to stick with Cap as an Avenger.
OTOH, Hawkeye has a secret family. He's made choices to be a hero, but has also gone to extreme lengths to have a "normal" life, one that he is always working on (hence all of his home improvement projects). After he carries himself to the evacuation car, he collapses. He's done, physically and emotionally (also, let's point out that every cue in the film was he was the one to die -- right down to it seeming like One Last Job). Anyway, he sees the kid in peril, and he makes himself get up and go rescue him, at the cost of Quicksilver's life (plot twist!).
His reaction is that this cost is not worth it. He goes home to be with his wife and family because those are the things that matter to him. What worth is saving the world if it costs your kids their father? The cost of heroism becomes to high, and he cashes out.
Good analysis, well thought out.
Nice touch on the all of the home improvement jokes, that's something I didn't catch.
I think they gave some of them a catharsis. Just like Widow, Cap was absconded from youth and normalcy. We see him in Winter Soldier still wanting that. Still debating, holding on to Carter, telling Falcon he doesn't know what to do.
And he also makes that sacrifice (interesting that both Widow and Cap make similar sacrifices and end up "parents" of the new Avenger team). He gives it all up, that search (at least until Sharon is back in play).
They do, however, leave Thor and Hulk kind of lost. Maybe that's the point.
This post was edited on 5/4/15 at 1:15 pm
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:22 pm to Baloo
quote:I agree with Fox, there is no subtext what so ever in this film.
As did I, but I was even more interested in its take on what makes a hero and the nature of sacrifice. Which leads us to one of my favorite parts of the film, the contrast between Black Widow and Hawkeye.
First, let's remember that they come from the same place to the Avengers. They were SHIELD agents who got caught up in the super hero stuff. They are ordinary people fighting alongside supermen.
For Widow, she chooses the path of sacrifice and heroism. She was essentially forced into being a spy and her back story is one of her being denied agency and the choice to be anything but a killing machine. She resents that, but right at the final battle, she pushes Banner into a hole to turn him into the Hulk. She chooses to deny herself the "normal" life that was being offered to her (and thought she had already been denied). Of course, there's the matter that her choice denies Banner of his, but that's a later issue. To be a hero, Natasha denies herself the trappings of an ordinary life. And at the end of the film, she's one of the few to stick with Cap as an Avenger.
OTOH, Hawkeye has a secret family. He's made choices to be a hero, but has also gone to extreme lengths to have a "normal" life, one that he is always working on (hence all of his home improvement projects). After he carries himself to the evacuation car, he collapses. He's done, physically and emotionally (also, let's point out that every cue in the film was he was the one to die -- right down to it seeming like One Last Job). Anyway, he sees the kid in peril, and he makes himself get up and go rescue him, at the cost of Quicksilver's life (plot twist!).
His reaction is that this cost is not worth it. He goes home to be with his wife and family because those are the things that matter to him. What worth is saving the world if it costs your kids their father? The cost of heroism becomes to high, and he cashes out.
ETA: Now, Black widow will continue with the Avengers. She will be, by definition, a Hero. However, if you asked the characters, they would say that Clint is the better Person. Natasha self-conceptualizes as a monster, and Clint as a regular dude. But he's the only one with the courage to do what has to be done, and then walk away.
have an upvote
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:25 pm to Dr RC
quote:I understand what you're saying, but part of Iron Man's development is that he overcame things like that when he decided to put on the suit and date Pepper. I feel like his character took a HUGE step back from where he has been, IMO. I understand that he's been an a-hole and that's been some of the draw that made him a fan favorite in the MCU. But his "I didn't do anything wrong" mentality is a step back. He felt HUGE guilt over the war his company had caused prior to becoming Iron Man.
He's ALWAYS been a jackass. I don't get why people seem to ignore this. Our intro to him in Iron Man 1 is him taking a reporter that is critical of his company's dirty arms dealing, bedding her, and then being a complete tool by having his secretary who he knows is sprung on him boot the girl for the house.
But I also understand that they have to set up Civil War. He doesn't feel bad for wanting to build Ultron because he had good intentions. He wants to protect the world, but at what cost? We saw his Iron Legion robots getting things thrown at them in the beginning. Why? Because they feel like over policing people is a bad thing. This is a new aspect of Tony's character that is in being established in order to set up Civil War. Do I think this is the direction Iron Man should be going? No. If they were going to incorporate Civil War aspects, I would have rather they tackled this stuff earlier in the MCU. Better that they fight early on and then come together, IMO. Now it just looks like some characters are taking steps back. Just my opinion.
However, the stones having special powers changes things a little.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:26 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Not to bring it back up, but it seems some people want to talk more about Ultron, the AI, etc. Shall we dig into that long post of yours?
Be my guest.
I think it perfectly answers the problems everyone has with Ultron and Stark.
Last few pages I've added a few pieces that enhanced the theory. There is a lot of information from.both movies that really makes my theory, at least to me, logically the best theory for the scepter, ultron, and Stark.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:33 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Cap was absconded from youth and normalcy. We see him in Winter Soldier still wanting that. Still debating, holding on to Carter, telling Falcon he doesn't know what to do.
As a kid, I didn't have much time for Captain America. I thought him to be boring do-gooder. But the Brubaker comics and his portrayal in the MCU have made him one of my favorite characters (and I will point out the other thing that changed is me -- I'm older and no longer see his idealism in such a poor light).
But the very best thing about Captain America is this uncertainty, underscored by his trust in people. Not just Americans, but people. Captain America has an unwavering faith in the goodness of humanity, despite everything he has seen. He tells Falcon he doesn't know what to do, but, here's the cool part, he still trusts Falcon to do the right thing. Cap would never build an AI behind people's back (for several reasons), but mainly because he doesn't believe in making decisions without other people. He values everyone.
He's also a man out of time, disconnected and alone. Which makes his faith in people even more remarkable. He's not giving lectures on the Greatest Generation, he believes that people haven't changed.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:37 pm to VaBamaMan
Any theories on the AI/ program surrounding the mind stone being a construct from the tesseract since the doctor said the scepter was part of it. Thats how it was able to penetrate the barrier in the first film.
One of the reasons I felt like the sceptor from the first movie was retconned
One of the reasons I felt like the sceptor from the first movie was retconned
This post was edited on 5/4/15 at 2:21 pm
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:39 pm to Baloo
quote:
I'm older and no longer see his idealism in such a poor light
"Who would volunteer to let a German scientist experiment on them for the sake of their country?"
I thought that was pretty great. I think Evans and the writers have done a really great job over the 4 movies of fleshing out Cap and making him a more interesting character than I ever thought he could be. I didn't read him in the comics because I always just thought of him as a symbol of a bygone era more than a hero.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 1:44 pm to ProjectP2294
And while that's a funny line, it goes straight to who Cap is as a person. He immediately empathizes with the twins and casts their decisions in the best possible light. He has faith in their goodness long before anyone else does. Cap is just so great.
I also read an interesting article about the comics, not the movie Cap, about how Captain America is really just an icon for the New Deal. He is a firm believer in the four freedoms, and his patriotism is not based on nationalistic jingoism but of a genuine love of the glorious melting pot of American cities.
I also read an interesting article about the comics, not the movie Cap, about how Captain America is really just an icon for the New Deal. He is a firm believer in the four freedoms, and his patriotism is not based on nationalistic jingoism but of a genuine love of the glorious melting pot of American cities.
Posted on 5/4/15 at 2:02 pm to Baloo
Evans is great as captain America
They've been writing him well (because the second half of the first avenger is turdrific) for the last 2 movies
He is really the coolest thing in the movie. I also like how he is in charge. Evans is great as Rogers.
They've been writing him well (because the second half of the first avenger is turdrific) for the last 2 movies
He is really the coolest thing in the movie. I also like how he is in charge. Evans is great as Rogers.
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