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re: Wade = Finals MVP?
Posted on 6/6/11 at 2:24 am to shel311
Posted on 6/6/11 at 2:24 am to shel311
quote:
As for my answer, I'll just paste from a post I made after the Chicago series:
Lebron had:
- 9 points in the final 4:28 of game 2.
- 10 points including 8 points in the final 5:07 of game 3.
- 12 points in the 4th quarter of game 5, including 8 points in the final 2:06.
I think it's pretty clear the ball was in Lebron's hands on most, to nearly all possessions late in the Chicago series(at least in those 3 games there.)
That's fair,LeBron had a great Chicago series.What I saw is Wade struggling,but making important plays rebounds,blocks,OT plays when it mattered.Now that Wade got a little rest since the Boston series,he's now back to A game form. You'll agree that really the Heat are at their best when James is the second best guy on his team and Wade is the number one.That might be more of a knock on Wade's consistency than on James.However someone else said best,Wade's A+ is more amazing.
as far as stats go,and I'm big into advanced metrics, they can only tell you so much.Boozer's stats game by game in Heats series aren't horrible,but what was impactful about him? When Wade made a play in Chicago series it was impactful to the outcome of the game,despite his overall subpar performance.However it can be argued that Wade's good plays are magnified because he made less of them then James.
Now,even in the Game 2 loss,Wade's impact on the Heat level play is greater than what LeBron is doing.That is something that can't be argued by even the greatest James supporters.
2
Posted on 6/6/11 at 2:43 am to RonBurgundy
quote:
You'll agree that really the Heat are at their best when James is the second best guy on his team and Wade is the number one
I'd agree, but I'd word it differently.
I'd say the Heat are at their best when Wade is the #1 scoring option and Lebron is scoring but looking to facilitate more. We saw a bit of that tonight, but with Lebron not shooting and scoring as much as a typical "Heat A game".
quote:
What I saw is Wade struggling,but making important plays rebounds,blocks,OT plays when it mattered
Can't forget Rose shooting 6% when Lebron was guarding him. You gotta think, it doesn't show up in the boxscore, but every time Lebron got Rose to shoot from 20 feet out over Lebron, that was essentially as good as a block or rebound. Plus, he batted i think 2 Drose passes in the clutch that led to steals/fast breaks.
Posted on 6/6/11 at 9:09 am to shel311
quote:
quote:
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You'll agree that really the Heat are at their best when James is the second best guy on his team and Wade is the number one
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I'd agree, but I'd word it differently.
I'd say the Heat are at their best when Wade is the #1 scoring option and Lebron is scoring but looking to facilitate more. We saw a bit of that tonight, but with Lebron not shooting and scoring as much as a typical "Heat A game".
quote:
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What I saw is Wade struggling,but making important plays rebounds,blocks,OT plays when it mattered
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Can't forget Rose shooting 6% when Lebron was guarding him. You gotta think, it doesn't show up in the boxscore, but every time Lebron got Rose to shoot from 20 feet out over Lebron, that was essentially as good as a block or rebound. Plus, he batted i think 2 Drose passes in the clutch that led to steals/fast breaks.
Shell...you nailed it. People are losing what Lebron is doing on the defensive end....also last night dude took 14 shots.....Bosh had more shots than that.......when Bron is "Majic" and Wade is the scorer, this team is unstoppable and in no way Magic was every considered "Robin".....On this team there is no Batman and Robin......there is Superman and Batman.....
Posted on 6/6/11 at 9:34 am to The Gooch
So, the gist of this thread seems to be that the obsessive Lebron haters are now criticizing him for playing team basketball.
Which, of course, is exactly why his defenders consider him the best all-around player in the league.
Do I have that right?
If Wade is the Finals MVP, how exactly does that nullify Lebron being the best all-around player in the game?
Which, of course, is exactly why his defenders consider him the best all-around player in the league.
Do I have that right?
If Wade is the Finals MVP, how exactly does that nullify Lebron being the best all-around player in the game?
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:06 am to RonBurgundy
quote:Must be nice to be able to "rest" during the conference finals
Now that Wade got a little rest since the Boston series,he's now back to A game form.
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:14 am to Colonel Flagg
quote:
My main point is Lebron is much more humble than I would be in his position. No fricking way I would let Spo gameplan the game away from me as much as they have.
Which probably has something to do with WHY LeBron is "ignored" in the 4th. In late game situations, the Heat go with the hot player and decide amongst themselves. LeBron was pretty much in defer mode all night last night. He wasn't shooting poorly, yet he still allowed Wade to run the show. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, shooter at all levels, and defender, yet he plays second fiddle to Wade far too often. I know Dwade is fantastic, but c'mon.
Why? Does anyone have an explantion? It makes sense if LeBron is a train wreck on the court, but he has played well all playoffs. It sure as frick isn't ES's decision either when the game is on the line. If DWade wins Finals MVP and LeBron keeps playing tentative basketball late, this series will end up hurting his legacy if the Heat do not win multiple titles. And for all those saying LeBron has been the MVP of the playoffs, that is true. However, if you are capable of being the best player on the floor for three straight series, then magically turn into the 3rd best player in the Finals, that doesn't look good. The knock on LeBron has always been whether or not he could step up and LEAD a team to a championship.
On the flip side, DWade is fantastic and should be commended on his play the last two games, especially considering how shitty he has played at certain times this postseason.
These are some of LeBron's quotes from Sunday morning's shoot around before the game:
quote:
“I will be in attack mode tonight,” James said at the Heat’s shoot-around Sunday morning. “Six free throws in (two) games from me is unacceptable. As simple as that.”
quote:
“Six free throws in two games, I do that in my sleep in one game,” James said during off-day chatter. “I’m going to make a concentrated effort to be more aggressive to try to get to the rim, create some more opportunities for myself and my teammates.
quote:
“I don’t feel like (there’s) one guy in the league that can stop me one-on-one”
LeBron finished with 17 points on 6/14 shooting with only four FT attempts (4/4).
This post was edited on 6/6/11 at 10:32 am
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:31 am to AlexLSU
Legacy talk at 26 years old is so dumb.
Compare Dirk's legacy today to what it was a month ago. Its an entirely differrent conversation.
Suddenly ESPNs fine with comparing him to Bird. I didnt hear any "Look at the rings arguments."
I dont hear anyone smearing Kobe's legacy because Shaq was the MVP of his first 3 finals. Not to mention the Phoenix series, debacle.
In reality, if the Lebron/Wade game 3 numbers are reversed in game 4, all of a sudden Lebron is an all timer again.
A player's "legacy" has basically become how he played in the last game/series we saw
Despite the nonsense that goes on while they're playing, history judges most of these guys(not named Bill Russell) on numbers and then championships to settle arguments.
Lebron could go down with the greatest collecetion of stats of all time, and the championships will be what allows people to make the "all time" arguments for him
Compare Dirk's legacy today to what it was a month ago. Its an entirely differrent conversation.
Suddenly ESPNs fine with comparing him to Bird. I didnt hear any "Look at the rings arguments."
I dont hear anyone smearing Kobe's legacy because Shaq was the MVP of his first 3 finals. Not to mention the Phoenix series, debacle.
In reality, if the Lebron/Wade game 3 numbers are reversed in game 4, all of a sudden Lebron is an all timer again.
A player's "legacy" has basically become how he played in the last game/series we saw
Despite the nonsense that goes on while they're playing, history judges most of these guys(not named Bill Russell) on numbers and then championships to settle arguments.
Lebron could go down with the greatest collecetion of stats of all time, and the championships will be what allows people to make the "all time" arguments for him
This post was edited on 6/6/11 at 10:39 am
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:39 am to eyeran
quote:
Legacy talk at 26 years old is so dumb.
Regardless of what you think, it happens and will continue to happen.
quote:
I dont hear anyone smearing Kobe's legacy because Shaq was the MVP of his first 3 finals. Not to mention the Phoenix series, debacle
Do you read this board? A good majority of the major LeBron haters on this board also happen to be Kobe lovers and vice versa. If one's shortcomings are brought up, the other's are as well.
quote:
In reality, if the Lebron/Wade game 3 numbers are reversed in game 4, all of a sudden Lebron is an all timer again.
Well with the way media is now, you have to expect hyperbole after significant games. Whether or not LeBron goes beastmode in Game 4 does not change that he played somewhat like a coward last night offensively, IMO. He even said he was going to try to dominate and that no one could stop him. Results? 16 points.
quote:
A player's "legacy" has basically become how he played in the last game/series we saw
What people are saying after Game 3 is no different than the main knock on LeBron since he's been in the league.
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:40 am to AlexLSU
quote:
LeBron finished with 17 points on 6/14 shooting with only four FT attempts (4/4).
I really think he is being put in this position because he is a better 3pt shooter. I would rather have Lebron driving through the lane more than Wade the majority of the time, but Wade will not play as well outside.
Also as stated earlier Wade has by far the better matchup as Terry and Kidd just aren't going to be able to check a player the caliber of Wade or Lebron playing well.
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:44 am to AlexLSU
quote:Just because its talked about doesnt mean its not meaningless in the long run.
Regardless of what you think, it happens and will continue to happen.
Again look at what 1 playoff run has done for Dirk. A playoff run where he hasnt, and probably wont, even win a ring mind you.
No matter whats going on day to day on message boards, history ALWAYS tells the true story of these guy's careers. Not who won today's argument on PTI
This post was edited on 6/6/11 at 10:47 am
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:45 am to AlexLSU
quote:
Why? Does anyone have an explantion?
well last night wade was clearly in the zone, so it was the smart move, team-wise
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:48 am to eyeran
I get what you are saying, but just look at someone like Kobe who has accomplished far more than LeBron and is entering the last leg of his career. Titles he won in his early 20's are STILL brought up as a knock against him for not winning Finals MVP. Had he won those three Finals MVPs over Shaq, don't you think he would have a greater legacy? Of course he would.
This series won't define LeBron as a basketball player, but it WILL define his legacy if he does not win Finals MVP. If he wins five Finals MVPs after this it will go unnoticed for the most part, but what if Wade finishes with more than LeBron? This series is huge for LeBron if he wants a legit shot at being compared to MJ in the long run.
This series won't define LeBron as a basketball player, but it WILL define his legacy if he does not win Finals MVP. If he wins five Finals MVPs after this it will go unnoticed for the most part, but what if Wade finishes with more than LeBron? This series is huge for LeBron if he wants a legit shot at being compared to MJ in the long run.
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:49 am to AlexLSU
quote:
better scorer, rebounder, passer, shooter at all levels
Not in THIS series.
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:49 am to AlexLSU
quote:
Whether or not LeBron goes beastmode in Game 4 does not change that he played somewhat like a coward last night offensively, IMO
He had a solid game and was efficient. The Heat must have not wanted to run the offense through him (strangely). It was obvious he was following some plan as I am sure he would rather not be stuck out on the perimeter getting the ball at the last second to shoot a contested 3.
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:51 am to AlexLSU
quote:
but it WILL define his legacy if he does not win Finals MVP.
Not Really.
quote:
This series is huge for LeBron if he wants a legit shot at being compared to MJ in the long run.
I wouldn't compare him at all to MJ.
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:51 am to Colonel Flagg
Has it been mentioned that Michael Jordan was never not the Finals MVP?
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:53 am to AlexLSU
quote:
Titles he won in his early 20's are STILL brought up as a knock against him for not winning Finals MVP.
it's not a knock, basketball-wise
shaq was just a better player
the only reason it is brought up so often with kobe is b/c kobe fought so hard to be #1 over shaq, and it kept them from more titles. it's a personality/teammate angle much more than a pure basketball player angle
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:54 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
well last night wade was clearly in the zone, so it was the smart move, team-wise
Wade was the smart move because LeBron played a tentative game offensively. If LeBron played as aggressively as he told the media he would, Wade would not have been the go-to guy late. No one on Dallas is capable of slowing LeBron. Any way you want to slice it, LeBron didn't really show up last night and Wade did. Wade was aggressive; LeBron was not aggressive.
Posted on 6/6/11 at 10:55 am to dukke v
quote:
Not in THIS series.
That's the entire point of the discussion dummy.
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