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Started By
Message
re: Jonathan Bender: How Good Could He Have Been?
Posted on 6/23/14 at 7:37 pm to The_Hornet
Posted on 6/23/14 at 7:37 pm to The_Hornet
quote:
You were the one who said he was highly skilled, not me. I think he had good skills, but nothing to get too excited about.
Everyone that watched him play in his prime would disagree with you.
quote:
Cool. I didn't say anything about modern centers. I said 7 footers. And I don't mean guys who are literally in their primes right now.
Well, he was a center, who happened to be 7'3". So you want to compare him to a guy like Dirk? not sure that's fair.
quote:
And Garnett, Dirk, Davis, Cousins, Aldridge, Howard, and Monroe to name a few.
Again, see my point above. most of these guys don't play center.
quote:
Hell he wasn't even that elite for his own time period in the NBA.
of course he wasn't, he was a banged up mid 30's player. To truly appreciate him, you have to look at his per 36min averages.
18/11/3ast.
his career PER is 21.1 despite only playing 25min per game. That would have put him in the top 20 in the NBA last year.
quote:
In the Eggers piece, the coach of the reigning NBA champions, Rick Carlisle, who was an assistant in Portland when Sabonis first arrived, says the following: “I have no doubt Arvydas would be in the conversation as a top 15 or 20 player all-time without the injuries."
quote:
The Atlantic story talks about how Sabonis dominated Ralph Sampson when the Soviet national team played an exhibition vs the University of Virginia, and quotes Newell as saying he would have drafted Sabonis over Patrick Ewing in 1985. I have no problems with that - I'd definitely rate young Sabonis ahead of young Ewing.
quote:
A 2003 story by Carl Shreck in the Moscow Times notes a 2001 claim by then-Blazers coach Mike Dunleavy that not even Shaq in his prime could have handled Sabonis in his prime.
quote:
Schreck also quotes Hall of Famer Alexander Gomelsky, Sabonis' legendary Soviet coach and mentor as saying, "He was the greatest European player of the last 100 years. He came to the NBA too late, obviously. But when you talk about players like Walton, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell, Sabonis was certainly on that level.
3
Posted on 6/23/14 at 7:39 pm to AlaTiger
quote:
Greatest player to come out of Picayune, Mississippi
He's the only player to come out of Picayune.
Even if he went to Miss St. he wouldn't have done much. His knees were done before he left high school.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 7:41 pm to Lester Earl
dale tried to recruit him to LSU
Posted on 6/23/14 at 7:51 pm to Lester Earl
"Of all the guys I’ve ever seen in this league, in 20-plus years, in terms of basketball ability he’s in the top 1 or 2 percent."
-Rick Carlisle
-Rick Carlisle
This post was edited on 6/23/14 at 7:52 pm
Posted on 6/23/14 at 7:53 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Everyone that watched him play in his prime would disagree with you
He played his prime in Russia against Russian players in the late 80's early 90s. Yeah. Really impressive stuff right there.
quote:
Well, he was a center,
Cool. Still doesn't change my point. Big men are big men.
quote:
who happened to be 7'3
Cool.
quote:
So you want to compare him to a guy like Dirk? not sure that's fair.
You want to say his skills are off the charts for a 7 footer but don't want to compare them to othr 7 footers. Yeah I'm really the one who is not being fair.
quote:
Again, see my point above. most of these guys don't play center.
5 of the 7 do.
quote:
of course he wasn't, he was a banged up mid 30's player. To truly appreciate him, you have to look at his per 36min averages
He wasn't good enough to play 36 minutes a game so why would I give him credit for something he never did.
quote:
his career PER is 21.1 despite only playing 25min per game
You just proved one of the biggest flaws of that stat. It rewards people for decent production in limited minutes. It's also a stat-sheet measurement that has no measurement of defensive influence. Win shares and Efficiency are much better indicators.
quote:
That would have put him in the top 20 in the NBA last year.
Pekovic was 19th this past year. Niko fricking Pekovic. Greg Monroe's was 22 in his second year in the league.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 7:58 pm to brgfather129
quote:
"Of all the guys I’ve ever seen in this league, in 20-plus years, in terms of basketball ability he’s in the top 1 or 2 percent."
-Rick Carlisle
yep. Pretty much sums it up. Would have been awesome had he played his prime in the NBA.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:03 pm to Lester Earl
Carlisle said that about Jonathan Bender.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:04 pm to Lester Earl
And I'm sure the rest wouldn't agree with that. There's a reason why people don't put him up there with the greatest. Because he wasn't one of the greats.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:07 pm to The_Hornet
How old are you. You are just dead wrong on all of your points.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:08 pm to The_Hornet
They don't put him up there with the greatest because they are afraid of upsetting you.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:08 pm to The_Hornet
quote:
And I'm sure the rest wouldn't agree with that. There's a reason why people don't put him up there with the greatest. Because he wasn't one of the greats.
He's in the hall of fame. So maybe The Hornet on TD may not think he was great. "The rest" prob agree that he was.
quote:
Carlisle said that about Jonathan Bender.
oh, he had the same quote i quoted earlier about Sabonis. Bender had his opportunities, never made anything of it.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:14 pm to Lester Earl
The injuries really got Bender.
Plus, he should have gone to college to develop his game and get some size in a 35 game season where he would have gotten a lot of minutes.
Not everyone can jump from high school to the pros right away, obviously.
He did not develop and he got hurt.
But, coming out of high school, there is a reason the Pacer picked him at #4.
Plus, he should have gone to college to develop his game and get some size in a 35 game season where he would have gotten a lot of minutes.
Not everyone can jump from high school to the pros right away, obviously.
He did not develop and he got hurt.
But, coming out of high school, there is a reason the Pacer picked him at #4.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:36 pm to Lester Earl
Sabonis was a GREAT, GREAT player. He didn't come over to the blazers until he was waaaay past his prime. The guy is an absolute legend in Russia/Lithuania. His court vision/awareness was comparable to that of Larry Bird according to many who saw him compete during his prime. Not the shooter Bird was, but he was 5"-6" taller. Guy would have been an all-star many times over had he spent his prime playing in the states.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:38 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
He's in the hall of fame
I know. And do you understand why he is in the Hall of Fame - I'll give you a hint, it's not because he had great NBA play.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:42 pm to The_Hornet
Dude just stop. You are embarrassing yourself.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:42 pm to The_Hornet
Why don't you tell us why? You obviously have all of the answers.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:44 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Bender had his opportunities, never made anything of it.
You are ridiculously intellectually dishonest. Bender had very few opportunities because of all of his injuries. Sabonis didn't have any injuries of note when he came over and he only played over 30 mpg once in his NBA career. He wasn't exactly tearing up Europe either and Europe wasn't nearly as talented and as deep as it is now when he was over there. I'm not denying that the guy was talented, but he wasn't some great white buffalo that you are making him out to be.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:51 pm to The_Hornet
quote:
Sabonis didn't have any injuries of note when he came over
i think his knees and achilles were already fricked up by the time he played his first nba game
Posted on 6/23/14 at 8:53 pm to The_Hornet
You need to go read what the Hubie Brown's and the Jack Ramsay's of the world say about Sabonis.
Posted on 6/23/14 at 9:04 pm to The_Hornet
quote:
Bender had very few opportunities because of all of his injuries.
He didn't play a lot when he was healthy because he wasn't very good. Role player at best
quote:
I'm not denying that the guy was talented, but he wasn't some great white buffalo that you are making him out to be.
I haven't made him out to be a great white buffalo. You have reading comprehension problems.
I said he had great skill and coordination for a guy that was 7'3". As much as you want to discount that, it is a fact.
quote:
He wasn't exactly tearing up Europe either and Europe wasn't nearly as talented and as deep as it is now when he was over there.
Tell me more about Europe back then.
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