re: Greatest you saw play LIVE and in person in the big 4

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you owned this thread

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Thats a joke.

HTT comes up with alot of reasons that Bonds hit way fewer home runs in his prime than he did later in his career. Not a single one mentions STERIOD use. What a joke!!

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HTT comes up with alot of reasons that Bonds hit way fewer home runs in his prime than he did later in his career.

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False, I gave you reasons why he didn't hit "a lot" of HR's EARLY in his career (rookie year thru year 4). What would you consier his "prime"? From 1990 when he was 25 and in his 5th year - 2000 when he was 35 he was one of the top HR hitters in baseball every year. He had 1 outlier year 2001, where he hit 73 HR, the next couple of years were pretty much like the years before in terms of # of HR's. Relative to the rest of his career, Bonds 73 is not as much of an outlier as Roger Maris 61.

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Not a single one mentions STERIOD use. What a joke!!

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I linked another thread where we went thru this. In that thread I link a guy that has done research that says setriod do not help people hit HR's. All anyone can counter with is name calling and anecdotal evidence.

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Thats a joke.

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I appreciate Port's compliment, I'm at least trying to back up my argument with facts, not just emotion and bias.

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I linked another thread where we went thru this. In that thread I link a guy that has done research that says setriod do not help people hit HR's. All anyone can counter with is name calling and anecdotal evidence

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That is really funny if anyone really believes the guy. Why in the world would a guy jump his lifetime home run average to extreme levels. Use Bonds, McGuire, and Sosa as examples.

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I'm at least trying to back up my argument with facts, not just emotion and bias.

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I believe I have too. When I pointed out how Bonds increased his home run numbers after 12 years from an average of 30 per year to 47 for his last 7 years.

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I gave you reasons why he didn't hit "a lot" of HR's EARLY in his career (rookie year thru year 4).

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His first 6 years he averaged 23 a year.
His next 6 years he averaged 38 a year.
His last 7 years he averaged 47 a year.

This just isnt a pattern seen in the sport. Players just lose strength at a certain point.

I dont understand how anyone that has watched the game throughout the years can deny that Steriods enhanced performance.

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That is really funny if anyone really believes the guy. Why in the world would a guy jump his lifetime home run average to extreme levels. Use Bonds, McGuire, and Sosa as examples.

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what's even funnier is people that dismiss things out of hand, especially if it goes against a firmly held belief.

Those are not the only three guys that used steriods and many times in the past players have had extreme seasons (see 1961, Maris, Roger).

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I believe I have too. When I pointed out how Bonds increased his home run numbers after 12 years from an average of 30 per year to 47 for his last 7 years.

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what you are doing here is cherry picking the data to suit your point of view. You have selected arbitrary slices of his career. Inlcuded in his last 7 years is an extreme outlier.

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I dont understand how anyone that has watched the game throughout the years can deny that Steriods enhanced performance.

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I'll revisit this over the weekend, there is something I want to look at, but basically Devany's point is there are players that used that failed, if you only look at a handful of great players, its confirmation bias. There are also times in the past where #'s spiked that can't be blamed on PED's. You have nothing but anecdotal evidence, if there is a difinative link, it should be easy to finds studies that prove it.

Here's the link I'm talking about, only about the first 30 minures is about setroids in baseball.

LINK

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Maris number wasnt really that out there.

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it was comapred to the rest of his career, that's what I meant. 61 is 22% of his career total. 73 is 9.5% of Bonds career total and I think 17% of his total before and excluding the 73.

Another example, George Foster, hit 52 for the Reds in 1977. He only went over 30 twice. His high before 77 was 29, that's an increase of 23. Bonds career high before 73 was 49 an increase of 24. 1 thing about 77, it was an expansion year, so was 1998.

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Ill research your stuff though and try to keep an open mind on it.

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, that's all i can ask.

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Do you think that Steriod use had anything to do with the massive home run numbers being put up in the heart of the steroid era?

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I don't know to be honest, I'll put it this way, if this was a criminal trial, I could not find steriods guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. HR #'s were up, but they added 4 teams in a short period, built a lot of new generally smaller parks and the strike zone seems to have shrunk, as you noted players stand on top of the plate each of those things can contribute to jumps in HR's. I want to look at some other numbers and I'll start a thread this weekend.

Basketball - Jordan (Washington Wizards Jordan, but still Jordan)
Football - Peyton Manning (College and Pro)
Baseball - I've seen the Yankees in person probably 7 or 8 times, so probably one of them. Not a big baseball fan though. A-Rod or Jeter maybe?

Also seen Mark McGuire in person