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re: American Pharoah vs. Secretariat; Side-by-Side Synched Videos
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:39 pm to Fearthehat0307
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:39 pm to Fearthehat0307
quote:When thoroughbreds have hard heavy breathing or start laboring, it isn't good. Most likely the jockey will stop the horse at that point
i know when i'm running at max capacity my breathing is not fine. if my breathing is fine i'm not going at max capacity
0
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:39 pm to 40 Rouge
quote:yeah apparently people are "trolling" if you disagree with them so it's raising the post count
This threads keeps moving, like a tremendous machine!
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:39 pm to Fearthehat0307
Are you really going to act like you weren't trolling the first few pages?
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:41 pm to lsupride87
quote:the only post where I guess you can claim trolling is the championing inferior competitors post. which was more of a joke than trolling. outside of that I was being 100% serious. not trolling at all
Are you really going to act like you weren't trolling the first few pages?
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:41 pm to roygu
quote:
Heck Sham would would have probably been a better match for AP. In the Derby experts estimated that Sham probably broke 2:00 minutes.
sham is better than AP. and I like AP. He ran the 2nd fastest derby and preakness of all time.
People do not realize just how good sham was. with no sham, Secretariat is not as heralded today as he is becuase he would not have had to put in such draw dropping efforts to win
Sham would have probably won...35-36 of the last 40 triple crowns run.
That's why in of itself it's quite silly and trivial to look at raw speed times and declare X is better than Y. WE don't know how fast Slew / AP / Count Fleet could have ran had they really been pushed. They were miles better than the horses they were running against all slew's jockey had to do was basically get to the lead and not fall off
This post was edited on 6/9/15 at 3:43 pm
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:41 pm to lsupride87
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:42 pm to lsupride87
quote:Here was your very first post. Referencing Lebron. So you started this thread with a troll post
why are you always championing for the inferior competitor?
And then you started with the horses mindset replying directly to me, even though I never talked about that
quote:
he's trying to argue that he can read horse's thoughts and knows AP wasn't giving it his all because he wasn't pushed but yet secretariat being 10 miles in front of the pack is being pushed and he's going all out
I think you came in here to troll. Now you aren't. Once again, it's over. This thread is going good again
This post was edited on 6/9/15 at 3:44 pm
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:45 pm to vengeanceofrain
quote:That was the only point I tried to make in this whole thread
sham is better than AP. and I like AP. He ran the 2nd fastest derby and preakness of all time. People do not realize just how good sham was. with no sham, Secretariat is not as heralded today as he is becuase he would not have had to put in such draw dropping efforts to win Sham would have probably won...35-36 of the last 40 triple crowns run. That's why in of itself it's quite silly and trivial to look at raw speed times and declare X is better than Y. WE don't know how fast Slew / AP / Count Fleet could have ran had they really been pushed. They were miles better than the horses they were running against all slew's jockey had to do was basically get to the lead and not fall off
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:45 pm to lsupride87
quote:
m sorry but that isnt speculation. He was not really ever given the whip, and he had a ton left when crossing the line. He was still gaining speed
And Ron Turcotte never went to the whip with Secretariat in the Belmont so I would assume he would have had a lot in the tank left as well.
Both great horses but Secretariat ran the fastest Belmont ever. That is the only fact.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:51 pm to lsupride87
first post i'll admit was a joke. that was pretty obvious. I guess it could be loosely called trolling
quote:this is based on your posts in this thread. it may be a slight exaggeration but it is backed up by posts you had made.
he's trying to argue that he can read horse's thoughts and knows AP wasn't giving it his all because he wasn't pushed but yet secretariat being 10 miles in front of the pack is being pushed and he's going all out
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you came in here to troll. Now you aren't. Once again, it's over. This thread is going good again
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:51 pm to ptra
quote:oh snap
And Ron Turcotte never went to the whip with Secretariat in the Belmont so I would assume he would have had a lot in the tank left as well.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:54 pm to ptra
quote:He may have. I said it is possible if they raced head to head Red may have run faster. I just don't think that is likely based on watching the races and listening to Turcotte speak about the race
quote: m sorry but that isnt speculation. He was not really ever given the whip, and he had a ton left when crossing the line. He was still gaining speed And Ron Turcotte never went to the whip with Secretariat in the Belmont so I would assume he would have had a lot in the tank left as well. Both great horses but Secretariat ran the fastest Belmont ever. That is the only fact.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:56 pm to lsupride87
quote:How much track would AP have had to make up on Secretariat down the stretch? Would his jockey have thought it was worth the horse's effort and whipped him? Is it possible AP would have been worn out trying to keep pace with Secretariat over the first 1-1/4 mile? I think it is more likely that AP would have been worn down like Sham than he would have been able to cut more than 2 seconds off his time.
Im sorry but that isnt speculation. He was not really ever given the whip, and he had a ton left when crossing the line. He was still gaining speed
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:58 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:Oh I don't think AP would win. I just think he could run faster than yesterday. But you pose a great point. I'm not sure what would happen if AP was in that exact race with Red.
How much track would AP have had to make up on Secretariat down the stretch? Would his jockey have thought it was worth the horse's effort and whipped him? Is it possible AP would have been worn out trying to keep pace with Secretariat over the first 1-1/4 mile? I think it is more likely that AP would have been worn down like Sham than he would have been able to cut more than 2 seconds off his time.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 3:59 pm to lsupride87
quote:
I'm not sure what would happen if AP was in that exact race with Red.
AP would have had to stay close to him and run a similar race to Sham.
Probably with a similar result.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 4:01 pm to KosmoCramer
quote:You think Victor would have chases right out the gate like that? I'm not so sure he wouldn't jave sat back a little bit hoping Red would run himself dead
AP would have had to stay close to him and run a similar race to Sham. Probably with a similar result.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 4:04 pm to KosmoCramer
If you hypothtically put the 2 in a race, I think big red would win anything over.. 8F which is a mile, but i think it would be much closer than people think becuase of the contrasts in running styles
Secretariat was not a "fast" horse nor was he particularly quick out of the gate. he did not have what you would call a high cruising speed, like AP does or another example would be Rachel Alexandra. the "come get me" type horses. The race in the belmont was an anomaly, going to the lead wasn't the plan and it wasn't what he normally did.
AP would without question get the jump and depending on how fast the race was going big red would have to kick it in high gear to come get him. But he would
but in all 5 of his loses, that's exactly how he lost. He'd get behind, and the horse that jumped out had too much left in the tank to run by him. This is why as good as he was, i don't think he beats seattle slew at 10F. Slew had too much speed and juice for that.
Secretariat was not a "fast" horse nor was he particularly quick out of the gate. he did not have what you would call a high cruising speed, like AP does or another example would be Rachel Alexandra. the "come get me" type horses. The race in the belmont was an anomaly, going to the lead wasn't the plan and it wasn't what he normally did.
AP would without question get the jump and depending on how fast the race was going big red would have to kick it in high gear to come get him. But he would
but in all 5 of his loses, that's exactly how he lost. He'd get behind, and the horse that jumped out had too much left in the tank to run by him. This is why as good as he was, i don't think he beats seattle slew at 10F. Slew had too much speed and juice for that.
This post was edited on 6/9/15 at 4:10 pm
Posted on 6/9/15 at 4:10 pm to tigerpawl
Fun argument but obviously not one that can be settled empirically.
Maybe you had to be there but, for me, I can't imagine what a horse better than Secretariat would look like.
I know I haven't seen one yet.
Maybe you had to be there but, for me, I can't imagine what a horse better than Secretariat would look like.
I know I haven't seen one yet.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 4:11 pm to lsupride87
quote:
You think Victor would have chases right out the gate like that?
I think he would have stalked him, similar to his run in the Derby against Dortmund and Firing Line. That was a slow Derby though.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 4:12 pm to KosmoCramer
quote:if anything Secretariat would stock AP. AP is a natural front runner and would get the jump on big red
I think he would have stalked him, similar to his run in the Derby against Dortmund and Firing Line. That was a slow Derby though.
Anyone who really understands racing, pretty much knew the belmont was for the most part over a half a mile into the race when materality didn't go to the lead. You give a front runner like AP an uncontested lead\ and let him set his own fractions and get a breather the race is over.
This is exactly how they beat Smarty Jones in the belmont; they took different horses and each one took turns running Smarty Down on the lead making hiim work for it and it set up for birdstone to pass him. without eddington and company pressing him the entire race, smarty easily wins that belmont
trip handicapping 101
This post was edited on 6/9/15 at 4:15 pm
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