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Weekend thoughts: a hydrogen economy
Posted on 10/25/20 at 9:48 am
Posted on 10/25/20 at 9:48 am
Fuel cells and hydrogen are fascinating. Been checking in on R&D since Bush pushed the fuel cell car effort. One of the most promising factors is that there are several types of fuel cells offering different efficiencies and fuel types.
My current bet is that nuclear plants (meltdown proof only please) producing hydrogen and alkaline fuel cells would work. N2H4 would be the fuel medium since it is liquid at room temperature and packs a lot of H that is easy to crack/deform. A gallon of N2H4 contains more hydrogen than a gallon of liquid hydrogen.
Alkaline fuel cells that NASA has used were around 80% efficient using pure hydrogen and oxygen. The active catalyst is "potash" and not a precious metal or rare earth. Carbon quickly poisons an alkaline fuel cell thus the N2H4 carbon free fuel.
A nuclear plant creates a lot of "waste heat." Heating water to very high temperature makes electrolysis a lot more efficient. Interestingly, the only raw material needed to make hydrazine is nitrogen from the air and hydrogen so there is plenty to draw from that gets returned to the environment as nitrogen and water.
I think we will see some combination of fuel cell/battery powered cars in the not too distant future. It offers gasoline-like refueling capability with massively fewer moving parts of EV's along with the ability to cheaply stockpile fuel storage that electric doesn't have.
My current bet is that nuclear plants (meltdown proof only please) producing hydrogen and alkaline fuel cells would work. N2H4 would be the fuel medium since it is liquid at room temperature and packs a lot of H that is easy to crack/deform. A gallon of N2H4 contains more hydrogen than a gallon of liquid hydrogen.
Alkaline fuel cells that NASA has used were around 80% efficient using pure hydrogen and oxygen. The active catalyst is "potash" and not a precious metal or rare earth. Carbon quickly poisons an alkaline fuel cell thus the N2H4 carbon free fuel.
A nuclear plant creates a lot of "waste heat." Heating water to very high temperature makes electrolysis a lot more efficient. Interestingly, the only raw material needed to make hydrazine is nitrogen from the air and hydrogen so there is plenty to draw from that gets returned to the environment as nitrogen and water.
I think we will see some combination of fuel cell/battery powered cars in the not too distant future. It offers gasoline-like refueling capability with massively fewer moving parts of EV's along with the ability to cheaply stockpile fuel storage that electric doesn't have.
7
Posted on 10/25/20 at 10:55 am to Auburn1968
You might get some good responses (and dumb ones) by posting this on the OT. They got a few smart posters over there that don’t often venture over here.
Posted on 10/25/20 at 11:45 am to Auburn1968
quote:
A gallon of N2H4 contains more hydrogen than a gallon of liquid hydrogen.
Please explain.
Posted on 10/25/20 at 12:16 pm to Auburn1968
Making, storing, transporting hydrogen is not the problem. The energy contained in H2 is the issue. Think propane grill vs natural gas for heat release. Hydrogen heat/energy release is ~33% of natural gas, ~12% of propane based on volume. Imagine requiring 8 of your current crawfish burners to boil the same pot of crawfish that you currently do. Hopefully that makes sense.
Posted on 10/25/20 at 1:28 pm to Auburn1968
You mean like the Hindenburg?
Posted on 10/25/20 at 3:42 pm to CheEngineer
quote:
Making, storing, transporting hydrogen is not the problem. The energy contained in H2 is the issue.
correct
hydrogen gas is not the answer either. It’s way too dangerous.
the answer is unfortunately out of our grasp at the moment... the entire universe runs on the energy of hydrogen fusion. Everything you see, taste, touch and feel is a result of that, and every single energy source whether solar, wind, nuclear fission or fossil fuel owes its stored energy to fusion.
one day maybe
Posted on 10/25/20 at 4:04 pm to LSUSUPERSTAR
quote:
gallon of N2H4 contains more hydrogen than a gallon of liquid hydrogen.
Please explain.
H4 vs H2
Posted on 10/25/20 at 4:19 pm to C
Gallon of one has something other than hydrogen. How can that have more hydrogen than something that is pure hydrogen?
Eta: N is a much larger atom also.
Eta: N is a much larger atom also.
This post was edited on 10/25/20 at 4:22 pm
Posted on 10/25/20 at 4:29 pm to C
quote:
gallon of N2H4 contains more hydrogen than a gallon of liquid hydrogen.
Please explain.
H4 vs H2
This ain’t it chief. Math is hard. Science is hard. Leave it to the professionals.
Gallon is a defined volume. You can physically fit more pure H2 In that volume than you can N2H4. At the same conditions meaning same phase. Nitrogen will take up space that hydrogen would take up other wise.
Posted on 10/25/20 at 5:13 pm to cgrand
quote:
It’s way too dangerous.
Posted on 10/25/20 at 5:35 pm to TigerCrude
Yeah I was shooting from the hip assuming he was talking about gas forms. Liquids are much different
Posted on 10/25/20 at 6:20 pm to C
But even with gas forms, the pure hydrogen should have more H atoms than the hydrazine. Unless there is something I'm missing relating to compressibility.
Posted on 10/25/20 at 8:37 pm to LSUSUPERSTAR
Yeah gas law is less dependent on molecule size. Pv/nrt
Posted on 10/26/20 at 7:20 am to Auburn1968
All I've been hearing is Blue and Green Ammonia lately.
Posted on 10/26/20 at 7:28 am to Auburn1968
The current universal way to make pure hydrogen is by cracking methane (CH4) at >1,500 degrees F. The energy usage to compress hydrogen (second smallest molecule) is very significant.
So to make hydrogen a viable energy option we still need significant fossil fuel usage, will emit significant carbon (green house gas concern), and will need significant energy to make it usable (more power plants)
So to make hydrogen a viable energy option we still need significant fossil fuel usage, will emit significant carbon (green house gas concern), and will need significant energy to make it usable (more power plants)
Posted on 10/26/20 at 12:43 pm to TigerCrude
quote:
You can physically fit more pure H2 In that volume than you can N2H4. At the same conditions meaning same phase.
Difference is to accomplish the same phase, hydrazine is liquid over 200 degrees F
You’d have to get that hydrogen at a balmy negative 423 F to get the same phase.
That said, the whole idea is stupid. No one is fueling their cards with an explosive, corrosive compound like hydrazine which even in ideal conditions generates NO, which is both ozone depleting and acid rain generating.
Posted on 10/26/20 at 1:11 pm to LSUSUPERSTAR
quote:
quote: A gallon of N2H4 contains more hydrogen than a gallon of liquid hydrogen.
Please explain.
Learned that from a fuel cell science conference. It doesn't seem right, but think of it as a matter of how the hydrogen is organized from loose and unorganized vs. organized and tightly packed in the molecule.
Posted on 10/26/20 at 1:23 pm to CheEngineer
Hydrogen in the form of Town Gas (cracked coal) was a primary source for cooking, lighting and heating in the northeast from the mid 1800's up until the mid 1950's. It was mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen.
In the 1950's natural gas lines reached the NYC and the last coal gas plant closed.
This is hydrazine in drag racing.
In the 1950's natural gas lines reached the NYC and the last coal gas plant closed.
This is hydrazine in drag racing.
This post was edited on 10/26/20 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 10/26/20 at 2:34 pm to Auburn1968
Hydrazine is a carcinogen as well. Industrial use as an oxygen scavenger in the past, but now it is converted to carbohydrazide for use in the US.
Posted on 11/1/20 at 7:30 am to MikeD
Gasoline's toxic and carcinogenic properties don't make a good cocktail either.
Hydrazine has an advantage over LNG or ammonia for fuel cells because the energy cost of cracking/reforming it is very, very low.
Again, one of the big problems with a pure electric/battery system is that mass storage is expensive and on demand in places like Calif. is iffy. It would be wise to have tank farms of fuel that is easily stored.
I wonder how this in combination with an alkaloid fuel cell would work. Remember, alkaloid fuel cells that NASA used were about 80% efficient, but carbon poisons them.
LINK
Hydrazine has an advantage over LNG or ammonia for fuel cells because the energy cost of cracking/reforming it is very, very low.
Again, one of the big problems with a pure electric/battery system is that mass storage is expensive and on demand in places like Calif. is iffy. It would be wise to have tank farms of fuel that is easily stored.
I wonder how this in combination with an alkaloid fuel cell would work. Remember, alkaloid fuel cells that NASA used were about 80% efficient, but carbon poisons them.
quote:
These derivatives are used in two-component rocket fuels, often together with dinitrogen tetroxide, N2O4. These reactions are extremely exothermic, and the burning is also hypergolic (it starts burning without any external ignition).
LINK
quote:
Abstract Low-temperature fuel cells operating on hydrazine fuel in acid and alkaline media comprise a promising class of new, non-conventional sources of energy. High battery performance is expected of hydrazine-based cells. The electrooxidation of hydrazine on the surface of different catalysts has been extensively studied recently. Examples of Direct Hydrazine Fuel Cells (DHFC) with anion or cation-exchange membranes show notable power densities. These aspects of DHFC development with analysis of future improvements in their performance based on changes such as an increase in catalytic activity, membrane type selection and MEA fabrication, are summarized in the present review.
This post was edited on 11/1/20 at 11:57 am
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