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re: Fed leaves interest rates unchanged and hints at 3 rate cuts in 2024.DowJones sets record.

Posted on 12/14/23 at 2:15 pm to
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
57977 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 2:15 pm to
quote:

the soaring corporate profits


Consumer credit card debt is up ~2% from Q2-Q3 while Real GDP for the same period is up only ~1.3%. This makes me believe those soaring corporate profits are riding in largely on the backs of rising consumer debt.

quote:

cheap energy we are enjoying for the past 6+ months.


3(ish) months, at least when it comes to the fuel pump. Prices rose through the year until plateauing in August and September. The drop has only been since then.

That said, lower energy prices are promising but they haven't been low enough for nearly long enough to have permeated the economy to the point of lowering prices (thus CPI remaining sticky at 4% (Core)).
This post was edited on 12/14/23 at 2:19 pm
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
133663 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 5:23 pm to
quote:

Consumer credit card debt is up ~2% from Q2-Q3 while Real GDP for the same period is up only ~1.3%.
Do you think credit card debt and GDP are one-to-one correlated?
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11868 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 5:34 pm to
quote:

soaring corporate profits


Porque?

[link=(chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.yardeni.com/pub/sp500margin.pdf)]Yardeni - Profit Margins[/link]

[link=(chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.yardeni.com/pub/sp500margin.pdf)]Yardeni - Profit Margins[/link]

Higher prices are finally flowing through corporate P&Ls and that's before the trillions in debt that has to be rolled at higher rates next year.
Posted by JohnnyKilroy
Cajun Navy Vice Admiral
Member since Oct 2012
40326 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 6:01 pm to
LINK

Big bump in q3 and just short of ATH.
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11868 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 6:08 pm to
Got it you just meant nominal levels. They are peaking and trending down. Not that anybody cares about earnings anymore
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91362 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 6:10 pm to
quote:

Not that anybody cares about earnings anymore


It’s all about multiple expansion with rates heading down.

Eventually you still need the E though.
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11868 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 6:27 pm to
I mean at this point what percentage of money in equities actually transact on earnings? It’s probably way smaller than you think. I doubt most hedge funds even care which is who I think is rotating into small caps driving the returns on IWM. Small caps are getting slaughtered. Almost half the companies in the R2000 have no or negative earnings. There’s clearly other factors that are more important for whoever is driving these massive moves.

Why would lower overnight lending rates drive multiple expansion? I disagree with that
This post was edited on 12/14/23 at 6:29 pm
Posted by SquatchDawg
Cohutta Wilderness
Member since Sep 2012
19206 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 6:36 pm to
quote:

Almost half the companies in the R2000 have no or negative earnings. There’s clearly other factors that are more important for whoever is driving these massive moves.


I can’t remember where but I heard somewhere that some huge % (maybe 90%?) of the R2000 can’t afford to pay their debt if they have to refinance at current levels. Anyone else verify/hear this?
Posted by LSUcam7
FL
Member since Sep 2016
8854 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 6:38 pm to
quote:

Small caps are getting slaughtered. Almost half the companies in the R2000 have no or negative earnings. There’s clearly other factors that are more important for whoever is driving these massive moves.


Russell 2k > S&P > MAG 7 over last few weeks. A month doesn’t make a trend but it could be the early innings of new leadership. Hell.. regional banks have absolutely crushed the last 30-45 days.
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11868 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 6:45 pm to
You can look into this. They’re called zombies. I can’t find a number for the Russell but even the S&P has 30 from my quick google search.
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11868 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 6:50 pm to
I was laughing my arse off this morning when I saw KRE up 5%

December will be interesting. I would bet a lot of tax related selling and risk off rotation occurs indicative of the term structure of treasury yields falling hard. Marginal growth has been almost entirely the Federal government and they won’t be able to meet the comps next year. Tons of stimulus ended in September. We will see if Grandma Yellen can put that $900B to use to prop up growth.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91362 posts
Posted on 12/14/23 at 7:19 pm to
quote:

Why would lower overnight lending rates drive multiple expansion? I disagree with tha


I’m not really talking about the Fed as much as I’m talking about the risk free rate on the 10y. All else being equal, multiples would expand on lower discount rates alone.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
38521 posts
Posted on 12/15/23 at 12:45 am to
quote:



I’m not really talking about the Fed as much as I’m talking about the risk free rate on the 10y. All else being equal, multiples would expand on lower discount rates alone.
Yeah. Being back below 4% is huge - for a lot of reasons.
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
57977 posts
Posted on 12/15/23 at 6:19 am to
quote:

Do you think credit card debt and GDP are one-to-one correlated?


No, but I do believe there must be some level of correlation between the two when we've had such long-standing, high inflation, consumer debt is historically high (and continuing to grow), Real GDP is relatively slim and the growth of consumer debt during the period is nearly 2x the growth of Real GDP.
Posted by RoyalWe
Prairieville, LA
Member since Mar 2018
4326 posts
Posted on 12/15/23 at 8:52 am to
Debt, if serviced or defaulted at some point, will slow the economy and affect interest rates (BEAR). America remains employed at historically high levels (BULL). They're running out or have run out of the free money handed to them over the past few years (BEAR). Human nature being what it is and socialist thought has me believing people won't cut back their borrowing (BEAR). Inflation has decreased somewhat because supply logistics were unfurled from the COVID-19 plandemic (BULL). Technical innovations via AI and robotics will move quickly in some industries most suitable by the former, but more slowly in the latter (BULL). This will make companies more profitable (BULL), but some will lose jobs or have to gain new skills in the new economy (BEAR).

Is there an inevitable result of this combination of events? Can we predict which trends will happen before others? Regardless, it will take time to reach a new steady state. I'll take the bump now, and my strategies will allow me to deleverage and be prepared for any eventual blowback.

One certainty is that markets fluctuate. I hope the pattern of them rising twice as often as naught proves robust.
Posted by SDVTiger
Cabo San Lucas
Member since Nov 2011
93840 posts
Posted on 12/15/23 at 9:35 am to
John Williams just salted Powell saying no hikes are being discussed
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11868 posts
Posted on 12/15/23 at 9:44 am to
quote:

I’m not really talking about the Fed as much as I’m talking about the risk free rate on the 10y. All else being equal, multiples would expand on lower discount rates alone.



That's financial theory that's not going to hold up at the end of a business cycle (Again, how many people are transacting in the equity market using DCFs?). Albeit we just started a new one in 2022. The yield curve is inverted and is never wrong. If we get a bull steepener, a signal of higher growth and inflation, and the commercial banks are lending again then flows will go into equities and you'll see that multiple expansion. But right now there's a tightening money cycle happening.
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