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Why You Can't "Stack the Box" vs. Auburn (with graphics/pics)
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:33 pm
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:33 pm
Alright, I've seen a boatload of criticism for John Chavis these past few days, most of it entirely unmerited. I'm not saying I completely agree with everything we did Saturday, but here's a look at why things are SO difficult against this Auburn offense.
1) Offense is a space game.
OC's want more space, DCs want less. The entire design of a spread (or in this case, spread option) offense is to spread the defense out. They want defenders scattered across the field to open up gaps for players to run through.
2) By running no huddle, Malzahn does not allow the defense to substitute.
This is key. What you see is that Auburn, nearly exclusively, runs a 5 man line. Rarely do they go two TEs. The one guy they do have (Lutzenkirchen) lines up as a TE/FB hybrid, at times in the backfield, at times as a true TE. Except they also sub him out a lot and play mostly 4 WRs (which is what they did a ton against LSU).
So here's how it looks:
Notice the 4 WRs (3 on the bottom, 1 at top). Notice how it spreads our defense out.
Newton ran right up the middle for about 15 yards.
Here's what it looks like on paper (different formation, same concept):
Realistically LSU is already "stacking the box." Stacking the box means having more defenders than they can block (they have 5 OL, we have 6 defenders).
People are saying we needed 7 or 8 guys in there.
If you bring in 8 guys, you leave two WRs uncovered. If you bring in 7, you leave one WR uncovered.
We chose to play them with 5 DBs most of the game. If you went "big" in terms of bringing in LBers, you have major liabilities in pass coverage.
Yes, our secondary is the best part of our team, but even an unaccomplished passer like Newton would dissect a defense leaving 2 WRs uncovered.
Their formations dictate how we line up.
Now the way you counter balance this is by having your front 4 eat space. You need at least one man to eat two blockers and the other three to occupy theirs. Unfortunately, this didn't happen for us (and we aren't really built like that defensively). So the result is, they end up with 5 on 5 every play, leaving us one LB to honor both the QB and RB.
THAT is why they ate our asses up on the ground.
Not because "we failed to stack the box."
If we stacked the box, everyone on here would be asking why the frick we allowed Cameron Newton to throw for 300 yards and had WRs running wide open down the field all day.
The bottom line is, Auburn's offense is SO difficult to defend because of a few reasons:
1) They spread you out and have speed at the skill positions.
2) Their QB is both a power runner and a speed runner. Tebow murdered defenses in this same way, but he did it by bludgeoning you for repeated first downs. Newton actually has the speed to rip a long one.
3) It becomes a game of pick your poison.
Malzahn orchestrated a great plan. It just so happens that our defense does not matchup well to this brand of offense. It's very difficult for even the best minds to gameplan against.
Saban's defense may actually have a good chance because he has a front 7 which is built more on occupying space rather than creating penetration/wreaking havoc.
1) Offense is a space game.
OC's want more space, DCs want less. The entire design of a spread (or in this case, spread option) offense is to spread the defense out. They want defenders scattered across the field to open up gaps for players to run through.
2) By running no huddle, Malzahn does not allow the defense to substitute.
This is key. What you see is that Auburn, nearly exclusively, runs a 5 man line. Rarely do they go two TEs. The one guy they do have (Lutzenkirchen) lines up as a TE/FB hybrid, at times in the backfield, at times as a true TE. Except they also sub him out a lot and play mostly 4 WRs (which is what they did a ton against LSU).
So here's how it looks:
Notice the 4 WRs (3 on the bottom, 1 at top). Notice how it spreads our defense out.
Newton ran right up the middle for about 15 yards.
Here's what it looks like on paper (different formation, same concept):
Realistically LSU is already "stacking the box." Stacking the box means having more defenders than they can block (they have 5 OL, we have 6 defenders).
People are saying we needed 7 or 8 guys in there.
If you bring in 8 guys, you leave two WRs uncovered. If you bring in 7, you leave one WR uncovered.
We chose to play them with 5 DBs most of the game. If you went "big" in terms of bringing in LBers, you have major liabilities in pass coverage.
Yes, our secondary is the best part of our team, but even an unaccomplished passer like Newton would dissect a defense leaving 2 WRs uncovered.
Their formations dictate how we line up.
Now the way you counter balance this is by having your front 4 eat space. You need at least one man to eat two blockers and the other three to occupy theirs. Unfortunately, this didn't happen for us (and we aren't really built like that defensively). So the result is, they end up with 5 on 5 every play, leaving us one LB to honor both the QB and RB.
THAT is why they ate our asses up on the ground.
Not because "we failed to stack the box."
If we stacked the box, everyone on here would be asking why the frick we allowed Cameron Newton to throw for 300 yards and had WRs running wide open down the field all day.
The bottom line is, Auburn's offense is SO difficult to defend because of a few reasons:
1) They spread you out and have speed at the skill positions.
2) Their QB is both a power runner and a speed runner. Tebow murdered defenses in this same way, but he did it by bludgeoning you for repeated first downs. Newton actually has the speed to rip a long one.
3) It becomes a game of pick your poison.
Malzahn orchestrated a great plan. It just so happens that our defense does not matchup well to this brand of offense. It's very difficult for even the best minds to gameplan against.
Saban's defense may actually have a good chance because he has a front 7 which is built more on occupying space rather than creating penetration/wreaking havoc.
This post was edited on 10/26/10 at 2:35 pm
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:37 pm to OBUDan
Give it up. This defense of the nickel D against that offensive setup is ridiculous. You can't allow a QB to sit there whistling all day before deciding what lane he wants to run through.
He never completed a single pass downfield on LSU all day. If you bring one man off the edge, he's not a threat to automatically be able to find out which of his 4 receivers to throw to.
Auburn ran for more against LSU at a higher yards per carry average than what they could do against no other SEC team. The coaches messed up.
He never completed a single pass downfield on LSU all day. If you bring one man off the edge, he's not a threat to automatically be able to find out which of his 4 receivers to throw to.
Auburn ran for more against LSU at a higher yards per carry average than what they could do against no other SEC team. The coaches messed up.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:38 pm to OBUDan
well done, but for anyone that knows football this much is obvious. What's even more difficult is picking whether to zone or man up. if you man up you can bring more pressure, but your outside defenders will have their backs to the ball. if you zone, he can run for chunks of yardage as he did saturday.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:38 pm to OBUDan
This is probably the third thread I have seen like this... you guys can't possibly have jobs.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:38 pm to OBUDan
Also want to add, Newton has beat the blitz all year long. He's made a lot of teams pay that blitz.
We did come at him from a few different angles with mixed success.
We did come at him from a few different angles with mixed success.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:40 pm to Geauxld Finger
quote:
well done, but for anyone that knows football this much is obvious. What's even more difficult is picking whether to zone or man up. if you man up you can bring more pressure, but your outside defenders will have their backs to the ball. if you zone, he can run for chunks of yardage as he did saturday.
Exactly.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:43 pm to Doc Fenton
quote:
Give it up. This defense of the nickel D against that offensive setup is ridiculous. You can't allow a QB to sit there whistling all day before deciding what lane he wants to run through.
Right, you can't.
But it had VERY LITTLE to do with the scheme.. and everything to do with the failure of our front 4 to generate any sort of a push. We got dominated up front, plain and simple.
quote:
He never completed a single pass downfield on LSU all day.
We didn't let him.
quote:
If you bring one man off the edge, he's not a threat to automatically be able to find out which of his 4 receivers to throw to.
He's done it on multiple ocassions this season.
quote:
Auburn ran for more against LSU at a higher yards per carry average than what they could do against no other SEC team. The coaches messed up.
And to only think if the coaches were the ones out there missing tackles... how much more blame could we give them?
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:47 pm to OBUDan
my only complaint was that we shoulkdhave walked that deep safety upto box until we got beat one on one on the outside
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:48 pm to OBUDan
quote:
We didn't let him.
Which was stupid. You're acting like Auburn completing 2 or 3 deep passes against LSU would have been the end of the world. You are basically saying that giving up 440 rushing yards is okay because you like to play scared because you're afraid of the deep pass.
This despite everybody having known from the start that rushing defense was LSU's weakness, and that we probably have the best passing defense in the whole country. Sheesh.
If you at least make Newton throw deep under pressure, then at least he has pressure on him to make a big play, and can't just have a leisurely time eating up 8 and 9 yards a run. And, guess what, in between those 2 or 3 bombs that he might hit, LSU might actually make him screw up and throw an INT.
Auburn does not have a great passing game. On a good day they complete maybe 12 of them.
LSU knew Auburn's strength was against the defense's biggest deficiency, and they did NOTHING--nothing at all--to compensate for it. It's indefensible.
And no team in the country is going to stop Auburn with this scheme that you are defending. Nobody. You would get the same result against anybody else. A 7-on-6 running setup with Newton at QB and only 2 LB's trying to cover the running game from sideline-to-sideline is going to blow up in your face no matter who you are. It's plain incompetent.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:48 pm to OBUDan
Learn football, they use misdirection (fake handoff) to hold the backers then pull a guard making it 4 to block 3 on that side.
Or he follows the backs lead and takes a path thats open cause then it is 6 on 6.
ALl we had to do was walk up a safety of change him out to an extra backer and auburn would have been forced to try to consistantly throw.
Or he follows the backs lead and takes a path thats open cause then it is 6 on 6.
ALl we had to do was walk up a safety of change him out to an extra backer and auburn would have been forced to try to consistantly throw.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:50 pm to OBUDan
quote:
the ones out there missing tackles
And this is the last resort of the incompetent coach. "They just missed tackles." As if that doesn't happen to any defense against great runners when the runners have momentum and plenty of open space. Get real.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:51 pm to the LSUSaint
quote:
Learn football, they use misdirection (fake handoff) to hold the backers then pull a guard making it 4 to block 3 on that side.
I didn't really get into actual plays, thanks.
quote:
ALl we had to do was walk up a safety of change him out to an extra backer and auburn would have been forced to try to consistantly throw.
Sure, if you walk a safety into the box and leave a man uncovered, Auburn will gladly throw to a wide open person all day.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:52 pm to Doc Fenton
quote:
And this is the last resort of the incompetent coach. "They just missed tackles." As if that doesn't happen to any defense against great runners when the runners have momentum and plenty of open space. Get real.
Holy shite man.
Okay, so for instance, on McCalleb's 70 yard TD run.
Taylor reads the play correctly, crashes down.
He has a good angle and a direct line to hit McCaleb for a 4-5 yard gain. Completely over runs him.
That is a poor scheme? Chavis fricked that up somehow?
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:54 pm to OBUDan
no bring the extra safety up
and when taylor over ran it, i think he just got beat to the spot
and when taylor over ran it, i think he just got beat to the spot
This post was edited on 10/26/10 at 2:54 pm
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:54 pm to OBUDan
Dan, with all due respect, we didn't "Stack the box" and gave up over 400 yards rushing...we will never know if stacking the box would have yielded a different/worse result.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:54 pm to OBUDan
Taylor didn't do anything wrong on that play. It's not his job to cover McCalebb all the way to the damn sideline. He came up on a RB who had nobody within 10 yards of him, and pushed him further to the outside, where Mathieu got his arse blocked off and couldn't help on contain.
To say that play was the fault of Taylor is just stupid.
To say that play was the fault of Taylor is just stupid.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:56 pm to Doc Fenton
quote:
You're acting like Auburn completing 2 or 3 deep passes against LSU would have been the end of the world. You are basically saying that giving up 440 rushing yards is okay because you like to play scared because you're afraid of the deep pass.
No, that's not what I said at all.
But leaving unmarked receivers is the death of any defense.
It has less to do with deep passes than it does with men being wide open consistently if you adhere to the philosophy you want to believe in.
quote:
Auburn does not have a great passing game. On a good day they complete maybe 12 of them.
Sigh. They don't have to man. They run it on everyone. Everyone.
Since about week three they have run roughshod over every single opponent. Alabama had a wretched passing game last season. Did it matter one god damn bit? No. Because they just ran it up and down your arse, didn't matter if you "stacked" the box.
quote:
And no team in the country is going to stop Auburn with this scheme that you are defending. Nobody. You would get the same result against anybody else. A 7-on-6 running setup with Newton at QB and only 2 LB's trying to cover the running game from sideline-to-sideline is going to blow up in your face no matter who you are. It's plain incompetent.
Okay, so the solution is obviously to put 8 dudes in there. Got it.
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