re: Tommy John - Not If, but When?

Poor recruiting - bad physical

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We’ve already scheduled Westin’s TJ surgery. He’s 10 and hasn’t injured it yet but getting in there early to prevent the future injury when he is in the prime of his career and making the big money.

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Kids aren't allowed on our 5u travel team unless they've already had it. Can't risk losing a tourney due to injuries.

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Many kids are playing 2 to 3 times as many games as they were just a decade ago. And the travel ball kids are getting younger and younger. Baseball is almost year round for most of the south. That equates to more pitches thrown.

With more kids and more games you have weaker coaching to go around. Kids have screwed up mechanics that need to be closely watched. Plus kids throwing pitches that they shouldn’t at younger ages and you end up with problems down the line.

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everything you just posted is false. already went over this. everything.

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everything you just posted is false. already went over this. everything.

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Please tell me oh baseball guru how more kids and more teams mean that the coaching (specifically pitching coaching) is better.

Tell me what is wrong about saying kids have screwed up mechanics that need to be watched? I guess you think kids always have great pitching motion.

Oh master of baseball please tell me how you know kids aren’t throwing sliders at 11 and curves at 12. Because it happens at multiple parks every single day.

If you don’t think that all of that contributes to earlier injuries I don’t know what to tell you.

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If it affected velocity—and thus made them less effective—they would never wear it.

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You are correct, if left up to the players, no one will sacrifice effectiveness for safety . For players safety, baseball officials would have to make it mandatory.

People used to play football without a helmet or pads either but somewhere along the way, those in charge of the sport decided that everyone had to wear the pads for their own safety.

Hell in hockey they just started making face shields mandatory like 20 years ago and they could only make it mandatory for new players because the old heads wouldn’t wear something restricting their vision despite the safety it provides.

So yeah, it would be up to those charged with player safety to decide that arm braces are mandatory for pitchers much the same way that helmets are mandatory for hitters.

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everything you just posted is false. already went over this. everything.

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Love your passion for the game. But, there has been tons of research on pitching injuries over the past several decades that indicate the post you responded is indeed correct, just not complete.

Overuse is a major factor.
Biomechanics is a major factor.
Increased velocity is a major factor.
Strength is a contributing factor as well.

Depending on the individual, one of those 4 factors can override the ligament and failure occurs.

Example. A player can have great mechanics, throw at a high velocity and be strong in measurables that are indicative of protective health for the pitcher, but still suffer a UCL injury because of over use. The ligament sustains microtears over time that often are asymptomatic until enough damage is done that a larger tear occurs or a complete tear.

Surgeons will tell you that when they open up the arm of a teenager for Tommy John that the ligament looks vastly different than one of an adult player having TJ. Why? The amount of use over time for the adult player.

So, a player can seemingly do everything they can to prevent injury, but if they are pitching at close to maximum effort almost year round, they are putting a lot of miles on their arm. It is going to catch up with a lot of them.

Conversely, many younger players can be deficient in several of those risk factors. They can throw too much, be going through a growth spurt and not strong enough to support the velocity they are throwing and their mechanics are bad. It doesn't take much to tear the ligament on these players.

However, it can not be dismissed that the increase in the number of pitches is a major contributor to the rise in injuries.

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Oh master of baseball please tell me how you know kids aren’t throwing sliders at 11 and curves at 12. Because it happens at multiple parks every single day.

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have you looked at the elbow valgus stress on curveballs compared to fastballs? because curveballs actually have less elbow and shoulder stress

read the study and lmk when you want to discuss

LINK

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Please tell me oh baseball guru how more kids and more teams mean that the coaching (specifically pitching coaching) is better.

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the amount of kids going to private pitching lessons is at an all time high. the coaching is at an all time high. mechanics are better than ever.

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I guess you think kids always have great pitching motion.

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absolutely not, when fatigued they absolutely have mechanical breakdowns. thats why our teams know the every pitchers average velo and their top velo and we keep the gun on them at all times. if we see 10-12% drop as they become fatigued we pull them.

are you involved at all with you baseball? do you want to discuss all the leading causes of UCL issues? actually backed by science...not just some opinion you pulled out of thin air...if so let me know. i wrote long post in the other thread detailing everything.

LINK

go read my post on pages 4 and 5 and get back to me.

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If you don’t think that all of that contributes to earlier injuries I don’t know what to tell you.

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so you were saying about curveball contributing??? read the study and get back to me if you would like to discuss




ETA there is some debate that maybe they can cause issues in the formarm that can cause issues on the ucl but still up for debate.

overall i agree kids shouldnt be throwing more than about 5 curves or sliders in a weekend and should focus on developing the 4 seem, 2 seem and changeup until about 15 and really focus on hitting spots. I say that in general because many kids dont have the best body control expecially when hitting growth spurts.

#1 cause of arm issues remain

1) trying to throw with high intent with a lack of strength/stability specifically in the chin up and reverse lunge positions

2) strength imbalances especially when combined with fatigue and specifically ER/IR relationship

3) being underprepared for the volume asked upon them

also key indicators are grip strength, reduced ER range of motion, lack of ability to do chin up chest to bar(lack of ability to decelerate), lack of ability to do flat back reverse bear crawls(lack or loss of mobility), lack of ability to hold a reverse lunge position for 3 min (stability), inverted W at footstrike, and aggressive trail leg...oh and loss of grip strength due to systematic fatigue.

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Increased velocity is a major factor.

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never said increased velo isnt a contributing factor

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Overuse is a major factor.
Biomechanics is a major factor.

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never said these were not issues, i said they are not the major issues. there is less overuse than there ever was. many like to claim such in such team is playing 90 games....not at the aaa or majors level there isnt. went back and checked all the major orgs.


like i said before fall ball that used to be played is abotu the same amount of games as played by most travel orgs during fall

the spring is march-end of june, same as little league if you make regional tourney for all stars. also the same as when legion was played with hs.

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Increased velocity is a major factor.
Strength is a contributing factor as well.

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increased velo with lack of strength is the #1 thing. i have pointed out over and over again leading causes than indicate TJ is a possibility. over and over again i went over the issues. read what i wrote, spelled it all out between the 2 threads, if you want the links, i can provide them.

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So, a player can seemingly do everything they can to prevent injury, but if they are pitching at close to maximum effort almost year round, they are putting a lot of miles on their arm. It is going to catch up with a lot of them.

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So, a player can seemingly do everything they can to prevent injury, but if they are pitching at close to maximum effort almost year round, they are putting a lot of miles on their arm. It is going to catch up with a lot of them.

Conversely, many younger players can be deficient in several of those risk factors. They can throw too much, be going through a growth spurt and not strong enough to support the velocity they are throwing and their mechanics are bad. It doesn't take much to tear the ligament on these players.

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i have never said this is wrong. i just went over all the strength issues, lack of strength or imbalances and these can be from any number of issues but the #1` issue is because parents keep loading up on the horsepower of the engine but never upgrading the breaks nor the shocks....aka keep trying to have little johnny throw harder through max intent throws...which is fine...but they fail to put him in strength training because they are scared to stunt growth despite all the evidence pointing to the opposite and the stance of every respected org being the opposite of that.

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However, it can not be dismissed that the increase in the number of pitches is a major contributor to the rise in injuries.

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but most kids are not throwing more than ever. thats the thing, everyone likes to claim that but its not true. in fact kids actually throw less, on average. there is not nearly the amount of just toss for fun that was done in the past

also the biggest cause besides lack of strength is being underprepared for the workload. kids go out and immediately in jan/feb and start high intent throwing with no on ramp. or they throw 15 pitch bullpens until first tournament and go out and try adn throw 75 pitches and boom...we have an issue.

Even with a count, he still will go to another position and continue to throw.

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only usssa does that. all the others are pitch counts not innings.

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also high intent throws are the biggest issue not throwing in general. and i went over all the reasons above and in the other thread on why