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re: The Quality of Pitching in College Baseball Today
Posted on 5/3/23 at 1:48 am to FriscoTiger
Posted on 5/3/23 at 1:48 am to FriscoTiger
What is the new strike cause it seems to be the whims of the umpires
0
Posted on 5/3/23 at 6:29 am to LSUFanHouston
It’s the bats
Posted on 5/3/23 at 8:22 am to chalmetteowl
quote:
It’s better that we have them… they didn’t always have them
So the distance runner should be held to 8 miles per five days? How can you build stamina and strength while increasing velocity and creating better control is pitches are limited.
Warming up properly prevents most of the injuries. Since the pitch limits were put in place, there have been far more injuries to pitchers.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 9:07 am to Timeoday
quote:
So the distance runner should be held to 8 miles per five days? How can you build stamina and strength while increasing velocity and creating better control is pitches are limited.
Warming up properly prevents most of the injuries. Since the pitch limits were put in place, there have been far more injuries to pitchers.
ignorant people are goign to argue with you, these are the same people that will tell you that a curve ball put more stress on the elbow valgus despite all the evidence to the contrary.
its because its what they were told by some old timer and it makes sense.....they dont care about the evidence, they care about their feelings. they feel right, therefore they are right.
i got downvoted for suggesting strength may play a part in it....you know because thats what the actual studies show.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 9:13 am to lsu777
quote:
i got downvoted for suggesting strength may play a part in it....you know because thats what the actual studies show.
How much does an imbalance in strength play into it, in your opinion?
By imbalance I mean something closer to the beginning of the kinetic chain being stronger than something closer to the end. In this instance I mean guys building up too much strength in their legs relative to their shoulder/arms and ending up trying to use a garden hose on a fire hydrant so to speak.
For so long guys were taught power comes from the legs, which is probably more incomplete than wrong necessarily (you'd know better than me for sure). It makes me wonder how much of that thought still permeates coaching and is contributing to some of this.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 9:40 am to LSUFanHouston
quote:
I believe we have had this discusion before.
What happens in Lake Chares (I believe you are there) is NOT the same as what is happening in other parts of the country.
In SE LA, I know of several kids who play on travel teams that start practice mid Jan, play 12 touranments March - early June, then play in a WS. Take July off, then practice in Aug, play in 6-8 tournaments Sept - mid Nov, then shut it down mid-Nov to early Jan.
If a team is good, they might play 5x in 2 days, then at WS play 7-8 times in 5 days. I know of several kids who push 90 games a year.
And... that's just travel. That's not counting middle school ball.
Showcase ball isn't as long... yes... But many of these kids are in trouble before they get to HS.
And yes... higher velo / less control, and terrible stretching are all problems as well. Those problems become more pronounced with overuse.
so i went back and looked....between 2d, usssa, pg....most i could find was like 45 games 10u and up atleat in the majors and aaa. PG is hard to search but just not seeing this 90-100games like yall are talking about. i doubt a single kid pitch team in the whole state ends above 65 games between fall and spring.
12 tournaments march through june is every other weekend. is that suddenly too much? thats less than little league.
world series...if you are playing 8 games they are picking up kids just for that. and thats a rarity playing that much, maybe 2 teams in the whole tournament will. 90% of teams in a world series will be at 5 games or less.
i stand by my statement, its not an overuse injury. its lack of preperation and lack of muscle mass. plenty of studies show the current generation carry less muscle mass than previous generations. also plenty of studies show that general physical prepardeness is way way way down compared to 25-30 years ago.
in the end...we know way more, but do way less.
there was fall ball, legion ball, all star tournaments etc etc etc 30 years ago. number of games played for those that did fall ball, then little league, then all stars and made regionals in all stars is about the same today.
kids throw less today as far as just tossing a ball than ever. low intensity throws below 85% are way lower than 30 years ago. combined with lack of gpp, lack of muscle mass etc....recipe for success.
if im wrong on the teams playing 90games...link me to the team. if its 13-14u AA....well let them kids play, they are not making a HS team anyways.
the other thing is parents getting their kids to pick up with other teams every weekend. that does cause overuse issue. other is kids playing travel and LL, pitching in LL throwing 85 pitches on a thursday and turning around on saturday and throwing 75. that does cause overuse and both of these things is ON THE PARENTS!
as far as stretching goes...should be doen after a performance, not after. lot different than mobility work and arm care and strength work.
also these kids sleep way way less than previous generations uninterrupted on average
Posted on 5/3/23 at 9:56 am to ProjectP2294
quote:
How much does an imbalance in strength play into it, in your opinion?
alot. alot alot. imbalance between internal and external rotation is one of the biggest issues and along with grip strength when you are talking issues outside the lats and legs. and its why i can not recommend the armcare.com app and device enough. I like the pulse alot but in the end, some kids can handle more high intense throwing than others, just monitoring is not enough imo. i think you need to test the strength and mobility prior to every high intent session and the armcare.com device is the easiest way to do that.
not gonna expect parents to be able to break out a crane scale and grip tester and test those things like i do for my kids. its rare and you have to understand the reasoning behind each reading along with medball throws to understand the fatigue issues. 99.99% of strength coaches dont have the knowledge to do that much less parents. i mean the info is out there but most cant understand it or dont want to
quote:
By imbalance I mean something closer to the beginning of the kinetic chain being stronger than something closer to the end. In this instance I mean guys building up too much strength in their legs relative to their shoulder/arms and ending up trying to use a garden hose on a fire hydrant so to speak.
i dont think imbalance in leg strength vs upper body is issue most of the time so long as lat strength is there enough to decelerate the arm.
quote:
For so long guys were taught power comes from the legs, which is probably more incomplete than wrong necessarily (you'd know better than me for sure). It makes me wonder how much of that thought still permeates coaching and is contributing to some of this.
it does but imo its taught wrong most of the time. many coaches dont know better and are teaching aggressive leg trail and big time stride lengths that are too far. the aggressive trail leg is #1 indicator of future elbow issues.
the long stride is causing many to land in an inverted W position which happens to be the #2 mechanical issue that indicates future elbow issues.
so legs being too strong is not an issue so long as mechanical things are cleaned up. but overall imbalances can cause big issues. IR/ER imbalance, pushing vs pulling both horizontal and vertical imbalances certainly cause issues. both ways.
instability issues when in the lunge postion(really reverse lunge) is another big issue along with grip strength.
studies i have seen is grip strength across the board is down big time compared to just a generation ago and even further from 2 gens ago. mainly comes from lack of general physical prep starting at young age. like no more climbing and swinging from things cause those items like monkey bars have eeen removed for fear of injury. PE in elementary school removed pushups, rope climb, chin ups etc for fear of hurting feelings etc etc etc
whole point of all my post is its real easy to say...its travel ball and overuse...when the issues are much much much deeper than that and systematic across the board in all sports. despite the knowledge we have, kids are way way less prepared in general for the types of forces being placed on the body during these sporting events.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 10:33 am to lsu777
So wanted to address couple other things from this thread
One guy posted he cringes when he sees the gun at 9-12u tourney…..the gun is the biggest in game indicator of fatigue and should be required at every kid pitch game imo. If your fastball drops 10% for 3 consecutive pitches from average(not peak) then you should be pulled imo. Shows systematic fatigue which leads to exponential increase in fatigue. We monitor every pitch speed starting at 9, we know every kids peak and average. In general our kids don’t have an issue with velo dropping even getting close to pitch count but when they do, we pull them. Elbow starts dropping over and over or arm a lot changes…we pull them.
On pitch counts…. 2d and pg have stricter rules or as strict as LL, and are within pitch smart recommendations. LL does better job with the catcher/pitcher numbers though. Pitch count issue do come in where kids are picking up and playing different orgs. Usssa sucks too with the inning thing and it’s why people leave that quickly if your team is good.
The other comment about if your kid is college material they will make it without 10 months of training………yea couldn’t be lore wrong. You aren’t making high level high school team like barbe, Sam Houston, west Monroe, Catholic, Jesuit, St. Louis, stm, teurlings etc if you are not training year around. You can take 6-8 weeks off of throwing if you would like but to have time to do a proper ramp up and then a velo phase then that is max and that still doesn’t leave a bunch of time.
You can play other sports but, you have to be training, period. The aging curve is for velo is a around 3.6 when taking into account 9-14 kids across the board. If you are depending on that and only throw even in the 1st standard deviation at 9(47mph) then you aren’t getting very far. That puts you below 70 entering high school, coincidentally which is around the 1sd for a kid entering 15u(freshman). Exit velo aging is even less.
So yea you do need to be training year around in some form if you even want to make a top level ha team. Notice I didn’t say playing year around, I said training. Weights should be started as soon as you start playing and if you can’t do a chin up you shouldn’t be allowed to throw imo. Don’t have the strength to support it.
One guy posted he cringes when he sees the gun at 9-12u tourney…..the gun is the biggest in game indicator of fatigue and should be required at every kid pitch game imo. If your fastball drops 10% for 3 consecutive pitches from average(not peak) then you should be pulled imo. Shows systematic fatigue which leads to exponential increase in fatigue. We monitor every pitch speed starting at 9, we know every kids peak and average. In general our kids don’t have an issue with velo dropping even getting close to pitch count but when they do, we pull them. Elbow starts dropping over and over or arm a lot changes…we pull them.
On pitch counts…. 2d and pg have stricter rules or as strict as LL, and are within pitch smart recommendations. LL does better job with the catcher/pitcher numbers though. Pitch count issue do come in where kids are picking up and playing different orgs. Usssa sucks too with the inning thing and it’s why people leave that quickly if your team is good.
The other comment about if your kid is college material they will make it without 10 months of training………yea couldn’t be lore wrong. You aren’t making high level high school team like barbe, Sam Houston, west Monroe, Catholic, Jesuit, St. Louis, stm, teurlings etc if you are not training year around. You can take 6-8 weeks off of throwing if you would like but to have time to do a proper ramp up and then a velo phase then that is max and that still doesn’t leave a bunch of time.
You can play other sports but, you have to be training, period. The aging curve is for velo is a around 3.6 when taking into account 9-14 kids across the board. If you are depending on that and only throw even in the 1st standard deviation at 9(47mph) then you aren’t getting very far. That puts you below 70 entering high school, coincidentally which is around the 1sd for a kid entering 15u(freshman). Exit velo aging is even less.
So yea you do need to be training year around in some form if you even want to make a top level ha team. Notice I didn’t say playing year around, I said training. Weights should be started as soon as you start playing and if you can’t do a chin up you shouldn’t be allowed to throw imo. Don’t have the strength to support it.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 2:21 pm to LSUFanHouston
quote:
But the vast overall majority of college pitching has deteriorated. Everyone likes to knock on the LSU staff, but this is a national problem and it's getting worse.
good grief. You couldn't be more wrong. College baseball is full of pitching talent compared to years past. Only top drafted players now to to MLB. Just look at the number of pitchers drafted from the college ranks compared to 20, 30 years past.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 2:45 pm to Bert Macklin FBI
quote:
It just feels like if baseball does turn out to be his best sport then I am letting him fall behind his peers by not getting him on travel team and getting him a hitting coach (other kids his age already have them). But the rational parent side of me says frick that, I am not making my kid specialize and if baseball is his best sport, he will be fine playing all the sports.
This is a dilemma all parents are facing. I avoided travel ball until my son was 13 and just played fall and spring little league and school ball if they had it and he played basketball and flag football. Constantly second guessed myself as several of his friends from little league and school were playing travel ball throughout the year, as well as having hitting and pitching lessons. Several of those kids have quit baseball and aren't even playing in high school (a few are doing well) and my son is thriving and his improvement since starting high school has been impressive. More importantly he still loves the game and works his butt off to get better. Having said that, he might be even better had I let him play travel ball when he was 10-12. You just truly don't know if you made the right call. Just do what you think is best. Like everything there are no guarantees.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 2:50 pm to lsu777
quote:
The other comment about if your kid is college material they will make it without 10 months of training………yea couldn’t be lore wrong.
At what age are you suggesting a kid needs to devote 10 months per year training for baseball?
If you think a 12 or 13 year old needs that, I don’t love it but I accept that at that age the kid can somewhat choose to be that dedicated to the craft and has probably shown a certain skill level that makes them believe the work will pay off.
If you’re suggesting 7 year olds need to train 10 months a year i think you are off your rocker and it’s coaches with similar opinions that have screwed up baseball at the youth level. This means that a kid has to spend the majority of his childhood practicing and playing a sport that 99% of them won’t play past HS. Hell I bet 50% of them won’t even play in HS either.
What happened to having to be good enough to make an all star team to warrant playing baseball more than 2 months a year? When I was a kid 20’years ago, you played baseball at the playground in may and June, then if you were good enough you made the city all star team and played through August. And only at 12 would there be independent teams that traveled from tournament to tournament and even those ended at the close of summer. This year round shite is lunacy.
Based on your posts, you seem to be knowledgeable and have the ability to keep your players as healthy as possible but for everyone one of you, there are 2 shitty coaches that would rather win than care for their players future.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 2:50 pm to LSUgrad88
quote:
This is a dilemma all parents are facing. I avoided travel ball until my son was 13 and just played fall and spring little league and school ball if they had it and he played basketball and flag football. Constantly second guessed myself as several of his friends from little league and school were playing travel ball throughout the year, as well as having hitting and pitching lessons. Several of those kids have quit baseball and aren't even playing in high school (a few are doing well) and my son is thriving and his improvement since starting high school has been impressive. More importantly he still loves the game and works his butt off to get better. Having said that, he might be even better had I let him play travel ball when he was 10-12. You just truly don't know if you made the right call. Just do what you think is best. Like everything there are no guarantees.
your son either plays for a small school, is an exceptional athlete or the quality of your little league was exceptional.
i say that because at the bigger schools or baseball power schools, hell almost every single school left, select or non select in div 1/2 or even 3......be extremely hard pressed to have even made the team much less play at any of them without having had played atleast high level aa ball at 12/13/14. not that there is something special about travel ball, its just the competition is so much better. also most schools in the state do not have middle school leagues and the little leagues for kids older than 12 are extremely few and far between.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 2:54 pm to lsu777
quote:
your son either plays for a small school, is an exceptional athlete or the quality of your little league was exceptional.
Why is the idea of a late bloomer or a naturally gifted player such a foreign concept to you?
There are plenty of athletes in every sport that were average at age 10 but then became good players at whatever craft at 16 or 17.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 3:14 pm to Bert Macklin FBI
quote:
Why is the idea of a late bloomer or a naturally gifted player such a foreign concept to you?
There are plenty of athletes in every sport that were average at age 10 but then became good players at whatever craft at 16 or 17.
i specifically said that....but in baseball its a little different because of the actual amount of skills needed not just being more athletic.
im just telling you....you arent making a team like barbe, sam houston, west monroe, catholic, stm, St louis, jesuit etc playing league ball. beleive what you want but its only gonna happen maybe once or twice every 4 years.
when they are only taking 9 maybe 10 per year, do you really think your kid is going to be in that group playing league ball? like i said, maybe a smaller school, not at a big time competitive school.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 3:15 pm to LSUFanHouston
Long time umpire here .been out of it for a few years. The problem in my opinion is the 10 year olds throwing nothing but curve balls. I think the arm muscles at that age get too stretched and never get built up to withstand the rigors of the act of throwing overhand.
Posted on 5/3/23 at 3:18 pm to redfish99
quote:
Long time umpire here .been out of it for a few years. The problem in my opinion is the 10 year olds throwing nothing but curve balls. I think the arm muscles at that age get too stretched and never get built up to withstand the rigors of the act of throwing overhand.
curveballs do not cause more elbow valgus stress
LINK
there is some debate that maybe they can cause issues in the formarm that can cause issues on the ucl but still up for debate.
overall i agree kids shouldnt be throwing more than about 5 in a weekend and should focus on developing the 4 seem, 2 seem and changeup until about 15-16 and really focus on hitting spots. I say that in general because many kids dont have the best body control expecially when hitting growth spurts.
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