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HVAC question
Posted on 5/30/24 at 10:30 am
Posted on 5/30/24 at 10:30 am
I am getting prices on a new unit, one company told me with the new freon 410, there are some advantages to going from a 2.5 ton to a 3 ton.
Any truth to this?
Hello sir, it is a 2.5 Ton out there. However when we quote 2-Stage we have to go with a "Full Ton Size" there are not Half tons. I wanted to make the quotes similar, as we always go up in those instances. There is benefit when going from the old refrigerant (R22)to the new refrigerant to up-size a little.
Any truth to this?
Hello sir, it is a 2.5 Ton out there. However when we quote 2-Stage we have to go with a "Full Ton Size" there are not Half tons. I wanted to make the quotes similar, as we always go up in those instances. There is benefit when going from the old refrigerant (R22)to the new refrigerant to up-size a little.
5
Posted on 5/30/24 at 10:37 am to FMtTXtiger
The new freon is not 410. That's old. Pretty sure it's being phased out and they will stop making it in January. I'm sure the price will start going up steadily after. Maybe someone can speak to the new A2L refrigerants and if those units are available yet. I'm sure I'm due for a new unit in a few short years. Definitely something I'm going to try to research first. I don't want to be stuck with a unit with astronomical refrigerant prices like people with r22 units.
This post was edited on 5/30/24 at 10:42 am
Posted on 5/30/24 at 10:50 am to FMtTXtiger
if your old 2.5 ton kept you comfy and controlled humidity well, it is just a waste of $ to go to a 2-stage 3-ton unit. The "low" stage for a 3 ton unit is 2 tons. You wont likely notice any difference between 2-tons and 2.5 tons.
I'd splurge on an ECM variable speed (not constant torque) blower in the furnace/air handler for sure.
I'd splurge on an ECM variable speed (not constant torque) blower in the furnace/air handler for sure.
Posted on 5/30/24 at 11:05 am to LEASTBAY
There’s r22 replacements out there, looks like 438a is currently the best, I’m diy my 3.5 ton because fk paying $9k -$10k for anything without acreage and a roof or an engine and wheels.
Posted on 5/30/24 at 11:53 am to White Bear
Im in a R22 20year old unit now. It's an upstairs unit probably only covering about 1300SQFT. you're right , probably wouldn't see much benefit from going to a 2 stage upstairs.
Was going to piece the new AC with the old furnace but being 20years old i figured i would just replace it all.
just thought it was odd the guy said there was benefits going from a 2.5 to a 3 ton. He probably has inventory on hand.
Was going to piece the new AC with the old furnace but being 20years old i figured i would just replace it all.
just thought it was odd the guy said there was benefits going from a 2.5 to a 3 ton. He probably has inventory on hand.
Posted on 5/30/24 at 11:58 am to FMtTXtiger
quote:
Im in a R22 20year old unit now. It's an upstairs unit probably only covering about 1300SQFT. you're right , probably wouldn't see much benefit from going to a 2 stage upstairs.
Was going to piece the new AC with the old furnace but being 20years old i figured i would just replace it all.
just thought it was odd the guy said there was benefits going from a 2.5 to a 3 ton. He probably has inventory on hand.
There can be advantages to 2-stage equipment but it depends on the situation, especially for zoning.
If you could downsize to 2-ton then a 2-stage 2-ton unit might provide some benefits. But in reality a properly sized single stage unit can be every be as comfortable and also be very efficient.
Posted on 5/30/24 at 12:01 pm to FMtTXtiger
Several years ago I replaced my R22 2.5 ton with a 3 ton 410, 16 seer, my old unit seemed to run all the time so I chose to go up .5 ton. Now because the unit does not run long enough to “condition” the air, I have to use a dehumidifier. Unit cycles off a lot and electric bill is smaller but I have to empty the dehumidifier 2 times a day during the summer. So more tonnage is not always better, use your square footage to determine what size,
Posted on 5/30/24 at 1:00 pm to FMtTXtiger
quote:
there are some advantages to going from a 2.5 ton to a 3 ton.
If the 2.5 did everything you needed, it's best to stay with that size. How many sq ft is the area? Many factors go into this. Newer units are very beneficial as to older units. How long do you plan to stay in the house? Remember this, when selling a home, a $2,000 unit works like a $5,000 one. The house value moves very little.
Posted on 5/30/24 at 4:24 pm to LEASTBAY
quote:
The new freon is not 410. That's old. Pretty sure it's being phased out and they will stop making it in January
Correct. The new refrigerant will be 454B and its propane-based.
EDIT: This is incorrect.
This post was edited on 5/31/24 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 5/30/24 at 7:09 pm to bapple
quote:
The new refrigerant will be 454B and its propane-based.
No it's not. R454B is a mixture of R32 and R1234YF. No propane in this mix. Some manufacturers are going with R32 but most are going with R454B.
In the future you may see R290 (propane) but that won't be anytime soon. Manufacturers are still grappling with how to configure the unit with R290 and NOT circulate that air in the interior space.
Posted on 5/30/24 at 7:51 pm to FMtTXtiger
quote:
Hello sir, it is a 2.5 Ton out there. However when we quote 2-Stage we have to go with a "Full Ton Size" there are not Half tons.
This is true, 2-stage units are not sold in 1/2 ton increments, so the norm would be to size up from 2.5 to 3 if going with a 2 stage unit, but this assumes the 2.5 ton wasn’t oversized to begin with.
quote:
I am getting prices on a new unit, one company told me with the new freon 410, there are some advantages to going from a 2.5 ton to a 3 ton.
It’s also true in the “old days” a robust R-22 HVAC would provide the rated BTUs of cooling capacity, 2 ton=24000 BTUs, 2.5 ton=30000 BTUs, etc. but as I understand it todays modern units may provide slightly less BTUs in cooling capacity than the rated amount but it shouldn’t be enough difference to change tonnage size.
Proper determination of the correct tonnage required should be based on a manual J heat load determination and manual S. Most, maybe all, HVAC companies are not going do this for you without charging a fee, and most probably don’t do it regardless.
As stated by others you don’t want to over-size when it comes to HVAC.
Posted on 5/31/24 at 12:43 pm to UPGDude
quote:
No it's not. R454B is a mixture of R32 and R1234YF. No propane in this mix. Some manufacturers are going with R32 but most are going with R454B.
Thanks for the clarification. My HVAC buddy said the switch to R454B was coming but I thought this mix had propane in it. Guess I was wrong!
Posted on 5/31/24 at 5:15 pm to bapple
quote:
Thanks for the clarification. My HVAC buddy said the switch to R454B was coming but I thought this mix had propane in it. Guess I was wrong!
Propane (R290 - GWP = 3) is coming in the future to get to the EPA mandate of a lower single digit GWP. Just not soon. So it’s R454 (GWP = 488) /R32 (GWP = 657) from 1/1/2025.
GWP = Global Warming Potential. EPA mandates the use of these refrigerants.
Posted on 6/1/24 at 9:34 am to UPGDude
I've heard rumors that the 1/1/25 date will almost certainly get pushed back as manufactures will not be ready for the switchover. You heard anything to that effect?
Posted on 6/1/24 at 11:01 am to Turnblad85
quote:
You heard anything to that effect?
Not at this point. We are certainly pushing for the 1/1/25 but the listing agencies are still not all in agreement (UL, CSA, ETL, etc). So it's kind of a cluster. But the EPA is still holding to the date.
Posted on 6/1/24 at 2:43 pm to UPGDude
quote:
But the EPA is still holding to the date.
They always have the consumers' best interest at heart. Just look at their regulations on power plant emissions that they didn't budge on despite being warned by grid operators that it will lead to premature closures and rolling blackouts. If I had a new furnace and A-coil installed in 2021, would it be advised to change out the old R22 2003 compressor running with the system? When he installed the furnace for me back in 2021, he told me there may be a refrigerant that isn't compatible with my coil, which is made for R410 or R22. Any truth to this? I'd prefer to not have to change out the coil again if I can. I had prepared to buy an R410 compressor this year.
Posted on 6/1/24 at 4:29 pm to bapple
If you go with R410 it would be no problem and service parts will still be available for a while. We can't manufacture any units after 1/1/25 but there's a 1-year sell down for distributors so they aren't stuck with stranded inventory. It's just that the refrigerant (R410)will cost you more these days. The new refrigerant will be much cheaper (R454B). This, is classified as A2L which means it's mildly flammable and you can't use your old A-coil since it's not listed as compatible with A2L. You'd have to change the A-coil if you want to use the new refrigerant with a new outdoor unit (R454).
Posted on 6/1/24 at 5:15 pm to UPGDude
quote:
This, is classified as A2L which means it's mildly flammable and you can't use your old A-coil since it's not listed as compatible with A2L. You'd have to change the A-coil if you want to use the new refrigerant with a new outdoor unit (R454).
This is exactly the info I was looking for and probably what my HVAC tech was talking about. Looks like I’ll be planning to get a new R410 compressor by the end of the year considering that coil is only 3 years old.
Thanks.
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