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re: Thinking About Starting An All Plant Based Diet
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:22 pm to LSUTigersVCURams
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:22 pm to LSUTigersVCURams
quote:Actually, lots of people argue that.
I don't think anyone's arguing that eating a lot of simple carbs won't kill you,
quote:It's true that - due to the extreme circular biases inherent in the industry - that no clinical study putting people on 70% animal fat has ever been completed. But like I said - that's due to circular logic. The diet-heart hypothesis has been accepted as orthodoxy (in the near-complete evidence of ANY supporting science) to the extent that such studies are considered to be unethical.
but this argument that eating a diet composed of huge amounts of saturated fats doesn't lead to heart disease is actually the argument that lacks the backing of the science and data
quote:You keep saying "paleo" - and that's the straw man, at least vis a vis any discussion with me. I'll be very simple and clear: there is basically literally zero evidence that a diet high in animal fats is bad for you - much less causes CVD. There is abundant evidence that all carbs cause diabetes. There is abundant evidence that carbs cause CVD.
It's based mostly on the wishful thinking of paleo/low carb people. Now is paleo healthier than living off simple carbs? Of course, but no one is advocating living off simple carbs. That is a straw man
0
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:24 pm to LSUTigersVCURams
Actually there is a lot of evidence about saturated fat not causing CVD.
I'm done arguing but the facts are in general you are wrong.
If most of your diet is based on non starchy veggies, atleast volume wise that is great for health. But 30-35% of calories should come from protein at a min to thrive. Fat should be a min of 20% minimum. The are the minimums. Processed carbs should not be eaten at all for health.
Rule of thumb is pretty easy, if you can't walk out into a field and pick it, kill it, or milk it....don't eat it.
I'm done arguing but the facts are in general you are wrong.
If most of your diet is based on non starchy veggies, atleast volume wise that is great for health. But 30-35% of calories should come from protein at a min to thrive. Fat should be a min of 20% minimum. The are the minimums. Processed carbs should not be eaten at all for health.
Rule of thumb is pretty easy, if you can't walk out into a field and pick it, kill it, or milk it....don't eat it.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:26 pm to lsu777
quote:But I don't even really like that due to how amped up "fruit" is now. A navel orange is essentially a piece of candy. Grapes are tic tacs. etc. etc.
Rule of thumb is pretty easy, if you can't walk out into a field and pick it, kill it, or milk it....don't eat it.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:29 pm to Big Scrub TX
Well I meant naturally grown like in the back yard. I agree though but better than shoveling down white pasta atleast from a health standpoint.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:32 pm to lsu777
quote:Agreed. I think people think it's just hyperbole when they hear the claim "there is zero evidence backing the diet/heart hypothesis", but it really is true. This most recent absurd edict re saturated fat from the AHA only underscored how true it is. They cited 4 studies, none of which shows what they claim they show. They also made reference to the infamous 7 Countries Study. Shameful.
Well I meant naturally grown like in the back yard. I agree though but better than shoveling down white pasta atleast from a health standpoint.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:34 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
I'm not talking about cavemen. I'm talking about us here and now. Look in any direction and you'll see the devastating impact of the recommended abandonment of animal fats and proteins over the past 100 years.
grains and carbs have been in the human diet since before jesus
stop with this last 100 years nonsense.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:49 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
grains and carbs have been in the human diet since before jesus
Studies show that Roman gladiators were "mostly vegetarian", typically eating wheat, barley, and beans
LINK
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:59 pm to PeepleHeppinBidness
It is also well known meat was a luxury for the military until modern times.
Training for combat and combat is physical demanding yet these guys would be lucky to have a deer or rabbit to get their hands on.
In field training you are instructed to get as many carbs in your system as possible.
Training for combat and combat is physical demanding yet these guys would be lucky to have a deer or rabbit to get their hands on.
In field training you are instructed to get as many carbs in your system as possible.
This post was edited on 7/19/17 at 3:15 pm
Posted on 7/19/17 at 3:00 pm to PeepleHeppinBidness
quote:
Roman gladiators were "mostly vegetarian"
That's a good point. This group often had a short lifespan
The fat that is horrible for you is trans fat. You just can't trust trannies. Trans fat is basically a fat invented by humans and is in the processed foods and veggie oils.
Cholesterol is super important for your brain.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 3:01 pm to LSUTigersVCURams
quote:
Yes your body is designed so it can live off of animal fats but that doesn't mean it's designed to live off 1500+ calories of animal fat per day for 40 years. No cave men or Indian trappers ever did that.
These two statements are counter to one another. If the body can live off animal fats it can do so for 40 yrs.
Go read up on pemmican and what was actually in it, not berries. Trappers and natives lived and traded pemmican for survival and were their "MREs" back then.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 3:02 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
Yes and no. The evidence is mixed.
Evidence is mixed on the value of antioxidants...?
quote:
You're mixing concepts.
You've been arguing the human body is meant to run on mostly animal products. I was just pointing out that the body wouldn't have evolved to run primarily on a diet that wasn't prevalent for the majority of people throughout human history.
Let's be clear: I'm not arguing against the value of meat to the human diet. I just happen to think fruits and vegetables add value as well. Even those with carbohydrates can be healthy. It's all about moderation though.
This post was edited on 7/19/17 at 3:12 pm
Posted on 7/19/17 at 3:12 pm to PeepleHeppinBidness
quote:
Studies show that Roman gladiators were "mostly vegetarian", typically eating wheat, barley, and beans
They were also "mostly prisoners" as well, but my part of the conversation is geared towards our ancient ancestors with hardly any developed civilization.
"We were testing the hypothesis that these humans had a mainly hunting economy, and therefore a diet high in animal protein. We found this to be the case..."
"Dietary reconstruction from carbon and nitrogen stable isotopes revealed that eight of the nine individuals analysed, dating to the Final Epigravettian, had very consistent diets, rich in terrestrial animal protein, regardless of their age or sex."
"The significant increase in d 15N values for these early modern humans relative to the Neandertals implies an increase in dietary protein from animals and/or in aquatic resources with long food chains relative to the Neandertals. Yet, any such differences are likely to be in degree, given the proximity of most of the isotopic values between the Neandertals and these early modern humans, all of them well within the 'carnivore' range."
"The isotope data were measured to determine the sources of dietary protein in Upper Paleolithic diets; the evidence indicates that animal, not plant, protein was the dominant protein source for all of the humans measured."
Posted on 7/19/17 at 3:28 pm to PeepleHeppinBidness
quote:
Evidence is mixed on the value of antioxidants...?
Sure, there is an interesting study I found a while back here about antioxidants.
Very interesting study,
quote:
The objective of the present study was to investigate the effect of green tea extract (GTE) used as a food antioxidant on markers of oxidative status after dietary depletion of flavonoids and catechins.
quote:
Since no long-term effects of GTE were observed, the study essentially served as a fruit and vegetables depletion study.
quote:
The overall effect of the 10-week period without dietary fruits and vegetables was a decrease in oxidative damage to DNA, blood proteins, and plasma lipids, concomitantly with marked changes in antioxidative defence.
So they removed fruits and veggies (antioxidants) and they found a decrease in oxidative damage...
Another study, here, found nearly the same thing. The abstract...
quote:Not a bad start.
Increased fruit and vegetable consumption is associated with a decreased incidence of cardiovascular diseases, cancer, and other chronic diseases. The beneficial health effects of fruits and vegetables have been attributed, in part, to antioxidant flavonoids present in these foods.
quote:
These observations led to the hypothesis that dietary flavonoids play a significant role as antioxidants in vivo, thereby reducing chronic disease risk. This notion, however, has been challenged recently by studies on the bioavailability of flavonoids, which indicate that they reach only very low concentrations in human plasma after the consumption of flavonoid-rich foods.
quote:
We conclude that the large increase in plasma total antioxidant capacity observed after the consumption of flavonoid-rich foods is not caused by the flavonoids themselves, but is likely the consequence of increased uric acid levels.
The evidence may start to point as uric acid being the antioxidant we are after.
quote:
Taken together, our data show that the increase in plasma antioxidant capacity in humans after apple consumption is due mainly to the well-known metabolic effect of fructose on urate, not apple-derived antioxidant flavonoids.
This post was edited on 7/19/17 at 3:30 pm
Posted on 7/19/17 at 4:03 pm to Junky
quote:
The evidence may start to point as uric acid being the antioxidant we are after.
My dad gets crippling gout on the reg. Turns out he must be healthy af
ETA: thanks for answering my question, btw
This post was edited on 7/19/17 at 4:08 pm
Posted on 7/19/17 at 4:57 pm to Junky
I didn't realize people didn't eat much meat in 1800s. I just assumed most of the country was rural outside a few big cities and people went out and shot deer or whatever, and raised pigs and chickens.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 6:23 pm to PeepleHeppinBidness
quote:
My dad gets crippling gout on the reg. Turns out he must be healthy af
Fructose intake is what is crippling him.
quote:
Fructose both increases uric acid and decreases its excretion
This post was edited on 7/19/17 at 6:26 pm
Posted on 7/19/17 at 6:53 pm to windshieldman
quote:What? People ate a shitload of meat in the 1800s. I cited all the data.
I didn't realize people didn't eat much meat in 1800s.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 6:54 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:And now you are actually talking about a time when mortality was very short-dated.
grains and carbs have been in the human diet since before jesus
quote:But that's when essentially non-existent conditions (diabetes, heart disease, etc.) became crippling epidemics.
stop with this last 100 years nonsense.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 6:56 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:What is this supposed to prove? The military is the victim of the same poor science that has dominated the past 60 years. And nobody is saying that in the forced absence of fat as an energy source you shouldn't eat carbs if you have them. That doesn't mean those carbs are good for you.
In field training you are instructed to get as many carbs in your system as possible.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 7:01 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
What? People ate a shitload of meat in the 1800s. I cited all the data.
Guess I didn't see that part. People are citing shite all over the place in this thread.
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