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re: Which Method Will Give a Richer Stock?

Posted on 1/30/18 at 4:36 pm to
Posted by saintsfan1977
Arkansas, from Cajun country
Member since Jun 2010
9944 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 4:36 pm to
quote:

Do you get more flavor out with more water or does the amount of water not matter to how much flavor leeches out.


Drop a bouillon cube in a half cup of water and another in a gallon of water. Which will have more flavor?
Posted by TH03
Mogadishu
Member since Dec 2008
171955 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 4:39 pm to
quote:

Drop a bouillon cube in a half cup of water and another in a gallon of water. Which will have more flavor?


The better analogy would be to then reduce that gallon of water to half a cup.
This post was edited on 1/30/18 at 4:40 pm
Posted by Stadium Rat
Metairie
Member since Jul 2004
10093 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 5:17 pm to
quote:

Drop a bouillon cube in a half cup of water and another in a gallon of water. Which will have more flavor?

OK guys, you're missing my point.

Focus on how much flavor is coming out of the solids. If more flavor comes out, I can always reduce it to the volume I want and the stock will be richer.

If I put a bouillon cube in a cup of water, it will be weaker than if I put a cube and a half in 4 cups of water and reduce that down to 1 cup.
This post was edited on 1/30/18 at 5:20 pm
Posted by saintsfan1977
Arkansas, from Cajun country
Member since Jun 2010
9944 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 5:28 pm to
quote:

If I put a bouillon cube in a cup of water, it will be weaker than if I put a cube and a half in 4 cups of water and reduce that down to 1 cup.


Correct but you asked if the amount of water made a difference and it does. If it didnt you wouldnt need to reduce it.
Posted by Stadium Rat
Metairie
Member since Jul 2004
10093 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 5:46 pm to
You're still focusing on the concentration of the water before reduction, not the amount of flavor extracted.

I asked which finished stock would be richer.
This post was edited on 1/30/18 at 5:48 pm
Posted by t00f
Not where you think I am
Member since Jul 2016
101462 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 6:05 pm to
Option C for me too.
Posted by saintsfan1977
Arkansas, from Cajun country
Member since Jun 2010
9944 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 6:18 pm to
quote:

I asked which finished stock would be richer.


My answer would be B
Posted by sleepytime
Member since Feb 2014
3857 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 6:18 pm to
The answer is method B but the difference would probably be slight.
If flavor is soluble, then using more solvent will ensure the maximum amount of flavor is being dissolved into the solution.

Solubility increases with temperature/pressure so that's why many of us use a pressure cooker and reduce to desired consistency/flavor.
This post was edited on 1/30/18 at 9:31 pm
Posted by Stadium Rat
Metairie
Member since Jul 2004
10093 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 6:24 pm to
quote:

The answer is method B but the difference would probably be slight.
If flavor is soluble, then using more solute will ensure the maximum amount of flavor is being dissolved into the solution.
This is what I suspected, but I didn't have any education on this subject. Are you an engineer?
Posted by sleepytime
Member since Feb 2014
3857 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 6:53 pm to
I have some chem/math background but not an engineer.
Posted by Caplewood
Atlanta
Member since Jun 2010
39420 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 7:06 pm to
Nooo that’s not how it works... sorry kosmo
Posted by KosmoCramer
Member since Dec 2007
80050 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 7:18 pm to
quote:

Nooo that’s not how it works... sorry kosmo


Explain why.
Posted by Caplewood
Atlanta
Member since Jun 2010
39420 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 8:34 pm to
Because. It just doesn’t. I don’t know the science but I know that it makes a difference
Posted by FAP SAM
Member since Sep 2014
3237 posts
Posted on 1/30/18 at 8:54 pm to
This is correct. More solvent (water) allows for more solute (flavor/proteins/particles) to dissolve into the solution. Then reducing (decreasing the amount of solvent in the solution) increases the concentration of the solute.

This is a scientific fact. Whether this method produces a noticeably different/stronger taste that is worth the extra effort & time is another question.

In the medical terms that I'm more familiar with... It may give a statistically significant difference but whether or not there is a clinical (real world) significance is questionable
Posted by BigDropper
Member since Jul 2009
8413 posts
Posted on 1/31/18 at 6:28 am to
Stock is comprised of four components. A nutritional element (bones, meat), a vegetable element (mirepoix & aromatics), seasoning (bouquet garni of herbs & spices), and liquid (cold water).

Bones contain collagen which is responsible for giving stock its flavor & gelatinous texture. Starting the bones in cold water allows for maximum collagen extraction. The longer you cook the bones the more collagen and other flavoring elements will dissolve into the water.

Method A does not provide a sufficient amount of water to achieve maximum collagen extraction. In this method, cooking the stock long enough to dissolve all of the collagen will evaporate the water down past the bones leaving them above the water line. If the bones are exposed to the air, then they aren't contributing to the flavoring of the water. The only remedy is to add more water to keep the bones fully submerged which sounds like a PITA. Method B solves this dilemma by providing sufficient water to account for loss due to evaporation during the extraction process.

I'll stick to how Escoffier recommends to make stock and therefore my answer is Method B.
Posted by LSUfan20005
Member since Sep 2012
9143 posts
Posted on 1/31/18 at 6:57 am to
What kind of bones are we talking about?

FWIW, I can't imagine using a regular pot for stock anymore. It's either Instant Pot or Crockpot. I really like consecutive 4hr Crockpot cycles, or a 4hr followed by overnight on 8hr.
Posted by WaWaWeeWa
Member since Oct 2015
15714 posts
Posted on 1/31/18 at 7:33 am to
quote:

In the medical terms that I'm more familiar with... It may give a statistically significant difference but whether or not there is a clinical (real world) significance is questionable


Optometrist

How do you know that the solvent in scenario A is saturated? If it’s not saturated then adding more solvent isn’t going to hold more solute
Posted by TigerstuckinMS
Member since Nov 2005
33687 posts
Posted on 1/31/18 at 7:37 am to
quote:

Drop a bouillon cube in a half cup of water and another in a gallon of water. Which will have more flavor?



The better analogy would be to then reduce that gallon of water to half a cup.

The best analogy would be to drop a bouillon cube in a half cup of water and notice it doesn't fully dissolve because the concentration in the water approaches the concentration in the cube and the concentration gradient driving the extraction gets weaker and weaker until can no longer efficiently dissolve more cube and everything slows down to a point where it just can't finish dissolving the goodness in a reasonable amount of time. If, instead, you drop a cube in a quart of water it can fully dissolve before the heat death of the universe, but it all ends up watery so you reduce it down to a half cup and it's more concentrated than extraction alone can be because while the water can hold more solute in the first case, there is not a sufficient concentration gradient to dissolve more because the concentration got too high in the water because there's not enough water to complete the extraction in the first place if you use too little of it.

Method B. All day, errday.

This post was edited on 1/31/18 at 7:52 am
Posted by Fratigerguy
Member since Jan 2014
4916 posts
Posted on 1/31/18 at 11:51 am to
But as you reduce it down, does the water continue to hold the solute beyond the saturation point?

I guess what I’m askin is if X amount of water is capable of holding X amount of solute, and you can’t dissolve said solute in X amount of water in the first place due to saturation, what checmial change takes place in the water during reduction that now allows the same volume of water to hold solute beyond saturation?
Posted by Nawlens Gator
louisiana
Member since Sep 2005
5946 posts
Posted on 1/31/18 at 12:05 pm to

Buy stock in boxes, cook in pressure cooker along with bones, celery, onions, etc. etc.. Cool, strain, freeze in quart bags.

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