re: I have high liver enzymes and cholesterol

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The deleterious effect of abdominal obesity is believed to be due to visceral adipose tissue (VAT), which is strongly correlated with traditional CVD risk factors: total cholesterol, low HDL cholesterol, triglycerides, apolipoprotein B, blood pressure, insulin resistance, and C-reactive protein. 6 – 8 The predominant theory is that these associations are mediated by the release of free fatty acids by VAT into the hepatic circulation, thus stimulating the release of apolipoprotein B– containing lipoproteins, reducing insulin sensitivity, and increasing plasma glucose values. 9,10 Recent research also indicates that a number of cytokines released by adipose tissue may also be involved in the development of atherosclerosi

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Obesity (body mass index [BMI] 30 kg/m 2) is an
independent risk factor for atherosclerosis,
1 stroke,
2 and cardiovascular disease (CVD).
3 However, not all people who
are defined as obese by BMI develop atherosclerosis, nor are
all people who have atherosclerosis obese. Recent reports
conclude that even at desirable BMI levels (18.5 to 24.9
kg/m
2
), an increased waist circumference (WC) or waist-tohip ratio (WHR) is associated with an increased risk of
CVD.
4,

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That didn't copy and paste well, but the first line of that article seems to come right out the gate and say that obese people can have this problem, but so can non-obese people.

The bottom line is, its easy to look at a person that is classified as obese and assume he has an unhealthy diet, but that's just because so many people have unhealthy diets (and many aren't aware of it due to misinformation!)

Its a simple odds calculation.

If I eat a shite diet full of processed carbs but limit my caloric intake and smoke a shitload of cigarettes , I might be skinny and unhealthy as all get out.

If I eat a healthy, low carb but balanced diet.... but consume too many calories...I can gain 30 or 40 lbs over my ideal body weight and look like a couch potato, no matter my fitness level.

Its still an assumption based on a cirumstance not a cause. Some of the things that make you fat, can make you unhealthy. But the science just isn't there to support the gross generalization that simply "being" fat is creating health problems. Eating the wrong foods is making us unhealthy. Eating too much food is making us fat. Do those two go hand in hand a lot (most) of the time? Sure. But its just too much of an oversimplification to say "fat is unhealthy".

It assigns the cause to a symptom, and it propagates ignorance that prevents a cure.

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first line of that article seems to come right out the gate and say that obese people can have this problem, but so can non-obese people.

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Exactly but I think you are missing the point. What they are saying is that BMI isn't the best indicator of risk of disease. Is it AN indicator? Yes but there are better ones out there.

The article is trying to argue that the better measurement of cardiovascular disease risk is VAT. I don't care what way you cut it. A person with high VAT will look overweight or obese.

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its easy to look at a person that is classified as obese and assume he has an unhealthy diet, but that's just because so many people have unhealthy diets (and many aren't aware of it due to misinformation!)

Its a simple odds calculation.

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Yes, ODDS are high that that obese person has an unhealthy diet. Sure there are those 5% of people who are obese yet healthy but the odds are not in their favor.

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If I eat a shite diet full of processed carbs but limit my caloric intake and smoke a shitload of cigarettes , I might be skinny and unhealthy as all get out.

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yes, you might.

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If I eat a healthy, low carb but balanced diet.... but consume too many calories...I can gain 30 or 40 lbs over my ideal body weight and look like a couch potato, no matter my fitness level.

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Eating too many calories is not healthy. What you said doesn't make much sense.

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But the science just isn't there to support the gross generalization that simply "being" fat is creating health problems.

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yes, it is. Fat creates all sorts of bad hormones, increases inflammation levels, leads to insulin resistance, etc. It is the fat that does this, not the diet.

Same sort of results from a physical caused me to make changes in October. I paid way more attention to how much I was eating instead of what I was eating. I do stay away from fried foods and sweets though. Breakfast at work used to be two biscuits, at least two sausages, and sometimes an egg or two. Still may do a biscuit and sausage, but have replaced it mostly with oatmeal (all organic oatmeal). Increased my fruit and vegetable intake and cut meat portions way down.

I still have been known to drink a good man beers and indulge in pizza and a burger a few times a month. When I do that I try have to stop myself short of being full and give it time to catch up.

Have been off and on running. 2-3 miles 3-4 times a week along with a job that climbing 50 stories a day is commonplace.

All of that has put me down about 55lbs and 6" smaller around the waist.

Other people already have but I'll point you in the right direction.

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Obesity and adipose tissue inflammation can lead to increases in pro-inflammatory molecules such as tumor necrosis factor a (TNF-a), interleukin (IL)-1ß, IL-6, resistin and free fatty acids. These molecules hinder insulin signaling often through serine phosphorylation of the insulin receptor and/or its substrates.2 TNF-a, IL-1ß, IL-6 and resistin (in humans) are produced by classically activated or M1 macrophages

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It is now well understood that adipose tissue is not simply a storage depot for excess calories but that it also actively secretes fatty acids and a variety of polypeptides. These peptides include hormones, cytokines, and chemokines that can function in an endocrine or a paracrine fashion. The adipose tissue consists of a variety of cell types, including adipocytes, immune cells (macrophages and lymphocytes), preadipocytes, and endothelial cells. Adipocytes uniquely secrete adipokines, such as leptin and adiponectin (24–26), that promote insulin sensitivity, as well as proteins, such as resistin [in rodents (29)] and retinol-binding protein 4 (RBP4) (30), that impair insulin sensitivity. Thus, the mixture of adipokines secreted by adipose tissue in a given pathophysiological state can have important effects on systemic insulin sensitivity.

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Adipose tissue contains bone marrow– derived macrophages, and the content of these macrophages tracks with the degree of obesity (4, 5, 31, 32). In some reports, greater than 40% of the total adipose tissue cell content from obese rodents and humans can be composed of macrophages, compared with ~10% in lean counterparts (32). These adipose tissue macrophages (ATMs) are a major source of proin?ammatory cytokines, which can function in a paracrine and potentially an endocrine fashion to cause decreased insulin sensitivity. Activation of these
tissue macrophages leads to the release of a variety of chemokines, which in turn recruit additional macrophages, setting up a feed-forward
process that further increases ATM content
and propagates the chronic in?ammatory state

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This is just some of what's out there. There is still a lot of research being done but all signs are pointing to the body having bad fat and good fat. You get the bad fat from a bad diet. The bad fat causes all sorts of other bad things. The unhealthy food is a part of the process.

ETA:

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Fat creates all sorts of bad hormones, increases inflammation levels, leads to insulin resistance, etc. It is the fat that does this, not the diet.

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I should have clarified that with bad fat and diet is indeed a part of the overall process. I'm still arguing that just having excess amounts of bad fat is not good for the body.

Mr Godzilla, a few word of advice to learn from for the rest of your life. Don't listen to the "recomendations". Live and eat as you desire to live all of your days. This info comes from a survivor of two attacks(the last in August done with laughter. as I figured out why I had felt like shite for two weeks) and three strokes that still has a brain and body that work quite well most days.

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I went from 38" back to 30", which I wore 15 years ago

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hell yeah. That is about where I started and where I am trying to get to. It is a bitch on clothes. Luckily work provides free jeans so I have been able to downsize those each time. I feel like I am swimming in everything else.

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The diet which leads to the fat! What happens when you eat too much unhealthy food? You gain fat.

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So... if you eat too much "healthy" food, you won't get fat? I'm sure you will.

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No, when we are forcing the body to store more bad fat it is an unhealthy process.

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So if you store "good" fat, its a healthy process?
Well, its certainly a natural one.

Again... the composition of the diet determines the persons health... the cause of the unhealthiness is in fact that type of food he is eating? I mean... if he ate a smaller amount of unhealthy food, he would still be unhealthy... right? Even if he wasn't fat?

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Look, I'm not out to paint all obese people as being extremely unhealthy and say they all need to loose weight. Only that person and their doctor know. I can't judge. I'm only saying that is dangerous to be spouting off that it is ok to be obese. You really want to take the chance that you might be in that 30% of people, which would be 10% of the total population? Yes, diet plays a HUGE part but it isn't the only part.

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Nobody said that. I said being fat is a result of consuming too much food, regardless of the type of food. And that you can in fact be unhealthy if you have a bad diet, regardless of your BMI. And in turn, you could eat all the right foods, but simply too much of them, and be carrying more weight than you wish.

What I feel is irresponsible, is indicating that fat is the cause of the problem, which, to virtually every single person, that's going to be translated into "not" being fat is healthy. So "Get skinny" is seen as a solution to solving the problem. Its not that simple, and its much more constructive to concentrate on what you eat as the cause of illness, rather than the quantity of what you eat.

And in fact... since you've got a lot of faith in statistical assumptions... if a person starts to care about what they put in their body, you can be certain they will almost universally begin to be more concerned with what the effects of putting in too much of it will do as well.


Now... all of this is merely a setup to change how we address the problem of these nutritional illnesses.... looking at causes, rather than symptoms.

There's still a very important debate to be had over what's really considered "healthy". And that's where I think we have been spoonfed, by far, the most damaging misinformation, because it leads people to seek solutions to "get skinny" and "eat right" that are the exact opposite of what they should really be doing.

But because that debate is so controversial and contradicts the current traditional wisdom, I think its just best to advise the OP, and others like him, to do some research, consider both sides of the argument, use some common sense, and make an informed decision for themselves, rather than just accept what their family doctor or "the guy at the gym" tells him.

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what is a significant amount? 25.5%?

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I would say 15% or more for a male, depending on what type of physical condition the person is in.

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I dropped from 212 to 158. I drink a craft beer almost every day. I eat the hell out of some tortillas. I eat oatmeal and cereal.

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Put it this way, I was drinking 15-20 craft beers a week: Marzen, doppelbock, Chimay grande reserve, big, big Imperial Stouts, double chocolate stout, etc. Most of them are pushing, if not exceeding, 200 calories a pop, that's 4000 sugar calories a week or two days normal caloric intake for a man, plus I'm not getting any younger. The GI Dr said give it a rest due to concern about what looked like a fat deposit in my liver although I have never had an issue with liver tests in my life and still don't.

Your weight loss is awesome. Most of my excess weight is abdominal, I am going from 227lb to somewhere 195-200'ish, 195 is a great weight for me. I have a wide frame, BMI numbers are irrelevant to me. In reading some of the weight loss thread someone said they had gotten down to a 41" coat, I could be skin and bones and still not go below a 46" coat.

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I don't eat fast food. I don't eat fried food. I don't eat sweets. I don't drink cokes.

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I don't consume any of that either. Might eat fast food 5x a year traveling somewhere.

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and I worked out 5-6 days a week

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...and that was my downfall, quit working out, too sedentary for 6-7 months, heavy beer - heavy beer, hot wings and fries twice a month with a buddy, and BOOM.

I do think it is awesome what you have accomplished, that is a lot of weight loss no matter what size someone is.

That's simply an appeal to authority. Look at the results. That's really all that matters. Obesity and type II diabetes has skyrocketed in recent history, and I don't think it was due to quality advice from doctors. I think it was from people selling you a diet that kept your blood sugar levels super high. Don't worry. We have medications for that.

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Listen to him/her so you don't have to visit your local surgeon later on

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I learned the hard way, triple bypass surgery is no fun.