re: I really would like to understand the pro-choice POV as it relates to life

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How is it not a human being pre-heartbeat?

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I believe that is is a human before then. I did not intend to imply otherwise. I was just choosing the heartbeat timeline as a place to frame my question

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If you outlaw abortion people will still have abortions.

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Murder is illegal, and people still kill each other. Should we make it legal? After all, people would probably start using more sanitary means to murder one another since it would be legal.

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how is a fetus with a heartbeat not a human being?

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Since you aren't going to get an honest answer from them, I will give you one.

"Thou shalt not murder" is a Judeo-Christian moral absolute. It is not an an absolute moral dictat in other religions or in atheism. That's why proaborts are equally content pulling granny off the vent and baby off the placenta for their own convenience.

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I really would like to understand the pro-choice POV as it relates to life

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Bullshite. If you really wanted to understand the pro-choice POV, you wouldn't be posting on the TD Poli Board. Posting here shows what you're really looking for: affirmation of beliefs you already hold.

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You don’t have to actively do anything at all to let a pregnancy take its course.

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Spoken like someone who's never been pregnant. Don't have to do anything

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I've got several children. I know how this works. It's also just basic biology and human development. All a mother has to do is keep herself alive (which is no different than if she weren't pregnant) and in all likelihood the baby will go to term just fine.

What expecting mothers do with their wellness visits is to get progress reports and try to get ahead of any medical issues that may exist. Mother's don't have to go to the doctor to remain pregnant or for the unborn child to continue to grow and develop.

If a mother never goes to the doctor and does absolutely nothing except care for herself like she would normally do anyway, the baby will likely continue to develop and eventually be birthed. That's how God made us and that's what we do naturally. Humans have done that very thing for thousands of years before our modern medicine. Mothers just went about their business being pregnant and eventually the baby would come out.

So no, it's not the same thing as having to have an operation to remove a kidney to give to someone else.

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Just as whether you are an embryo, fetus, infant, or adult you are a human

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Point to the stage of the embryo development where it is definitely human.

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There are two lives in the discussion.

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Sometimes this isn’t the whole story. It’s hard to understand the horrible situations that some women are dealing with. Crushing poverty, abusive situations, mental illness. If a woman decides that bringing a fetus to term will trigger a chain of events that would likely result in the death of herself, her other children, or anyone else in her life, you can’t say there are only two lives in the discussion.

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No one is omniscient so that shouldn't even be a consideration.

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Sometimes it’s very easy to predict the inevitable actions of others. Sometimes it’s easy to predict your own ability to handle trauma. Yes, lives have been lost when women do not have abortion as an alternative. That’s a big reason why anti-abortion laws have been overturned in the past.

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What we have is what is in front of us.

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It makes the issue at hand so much easier to pick a side when you ignore extenuating circumstances, especially when those extenuating circumstances are somebody else’s problems.

To say that a fetus is a human and must be protected as such universally without exception is a very simple, arguably noble stance to take. In my opinion, and unfortunately, it just doesn’t stand up to reason every time. And applied as a steadfast law, makes poor public policy.

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Sometimes this isn’t the whole story. It’s hard to understand the horrible situations that some women are dealing with. Crushing poverty, abusive situations, mental illness. If a woman decides that bringing a fetus to term will trigger a chain of events that would likely result in the death of herself, her other children, or anyone else in her life, you can’t say there are only two lives in the discussion.

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The causes of those impending deaths need to be addressed, certainly, but that's a completely different discussion. Everything we do can impact what happens in the future. Hitting the snooze button on your alarm can be the difference between being killed in the Twin Towers on 9/11 or being late to work and staying alive. We can't foresee everything that will happen to us and that's not an acceptable way to live our lives; we'd be paralyzed by fear and indecision.

In this particular debate, we're talking about what is known, namely that there are two lives immediately at stake: the mother and the child. If the mother has a fear or suspicion that other lives may be ended by her raising this new child, she should have that addressed in some way, such as through anti-depressants or therapy if it's a psychological issue. Going to back to school to get a better degree for a better job is an option long-term if finances are an issue, while seeking assistance from churches, charities, or even the government as a last resort is another path that can be taken. Giving a child up for adoption is always an option, as well.

So yes, for this discussion I can say with certainty that there are two lives, the mother and the child. All other people relevant to the discussion are secondary as the mother has final say over the life of her child.

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Sometimes it’s very easy to predict the inevitable actions of others. Sometimes it’s easy to predict your own ability to handle trauma. Yes, lives have been lost when women do not have abortion as an alternative. That’s a big reason why anti-abortion laws have been overturned in the past.

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See above. Those issues should be dealt with by other means outside of killing offspring. You can make the same arguments for children that are already born, too, by the way. It doesn't mean we should kill them.

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It makes the issue at hand so much easier to pick a side when you ignore extenuating circumstances, especially when those extenuating circumstances are somebody else’s problems.

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Extenuating circumstances almost always have other alternatives to abortion that can be considered.

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To say that a fetus is a human and must be protected as such universally without exception is a very simple, arguably noble stance to take. In my opinion, and unfortunately, it just doesn’t stand up to reason every time.

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Sure it does. It's a rational and logically-consistent position to take.

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And applied as a steadfast law, makes poor public policy.

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Poor public policy is trying to address every extenuating circumstance when making law. General policy isn't intended to solve every single problem we have because we wouldn't ever be able to have general policy due to an almost infinite number of special conditions and considerations that could exist. We do our best based on the Constitution and the general well-being of the country.

When discussing abortion, if the unborn child is a living human being, we need to be logically consistent with what we're willing to do to it. If we wouldn't kill our three year-old children because of poverty or mental illness associated with its existence, why would we do the same for the unborn child?

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because it is still in the womb in the body of the mother and hasn't been born yet.

Is that really so hard to understand?

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I think you're answering a question I didn't ask.

I'm not asking why you're pro-abortion. I'm not asking why you think women have the right to abort. My question is limited and specific. In this age of science, especially ultrasound technology, how do you conclude that a fetus with a heartbeat is not a human life? What is your thought process? I really am trying to understand.