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re: For those who are pro choice: At what point do you feel a fetus becomes a human being?
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:34 am to bfniii
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:34 am to bfniii
quote:
For those who are pro choice: At what point do you feel a fetus becomes a human being? by bfniii
A "HUMAN FETUS" is a "HUMAN"
This is the dumbest long thread based on the most ignorant stated question posed in quite some time.
0
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:34 am to GeorgeWest
quote:that passage does not say that life does not begin at conception. it merely describes God animating adam. i have listed verses that describe God knowing the person before birth
Genesis 2:7 (NIV)
It's not at conception
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:36 am to BamaAtl
quote:i wasn't referring to politicians but individuals. i have not read the entire alabama bill. can you cite where it prohibits the case that was proposed itt?
Alabama
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:36 am to BamaAtl
quote:no one has the right to murder someone for convenience. i'm sorry you don't understand that
It's her body, her choice
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:42 am to BamaAtl
quote:this pointedly and directly fails the sled test. we are all dependent on each other to some degree. is it ok to murder severely handicapped people? they are completely dependent on their caretaker
when one individual only lives AND CAN ONLY LIVE because the other choose to allow it to do so
quote:then most americans are ignorant.
it's what most Americans believe
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:44 am to BamaAtl
quote:
when one individual only lives AND CAN ONLY LIVE because the other choose to allow it to do so.
Applies to infants as well but ayyyy...
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:46 am to cahoots
quote:truth does not require a "consensus." that is a rhetorical fallacy called ad populum
there is no consensus on this
quote:i have cited the relevant verses
It's not written in the bible
quote:doctors and biologists are doing so from an empirical standpoint, not a metaphysical standpoint. let me guess, you "only believe science" or some dumb equivalent
Doctors don't agree. Biologists don't agree
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:53 am to Demshoes
quote:
Question for you, once born, does this human deserve all the help it can get from the state if born into a wasteland of poverty and/or abuse?
Absolutely. That's what churches and charities are for. Governments are to prosecute criminals, secure borders, fight wars, etc.
Posted on 5/17/19 at 12:00 pm to bfniii
quote:
truth does not require a "consensus." that is a rhetorical fallacy called ad populum
I'm not talking about a consensus in the sense of the masses (ad populum). I'm talking about a consensus among some sort of expert or authority, be it a scientific, philosophical, or religious one.
quote:
i have cited the relevant verses
The verses that not all Christian faiths even agree upon
quote:
doctors and biologists are doing so from an empirical standpoint, not a metaphysical standpoint. let me guess, you "only believe science" or some dumb equivalent
No, I am considering the entire spectrum of knowledge.
This post was edited on 5/17/19 at 12:01 pm
Posted on 5/17/19 at 12:03 pm to mouton
Viability sits around 20 weeks right now. Heartbeats detected around 8 weeks. Brain activity between 12-16 weeks.
So in essence there are a lot of factors, but in my opinion brain activity is the metric I feel should dictate abortion cut off. So anywhere from 8-12 weeks would be acceptable to me.
So in essence there are a lot of factors, but in my opinion brain activity is the metric I feel should dictate abortion cut off. So anywhere from 8-12 weeks would be acceptable to me.
Posted on 5/17/19 at 12:04 pm to cahoots
quote:
I'm not talking about a consensus in the sense of the masses (ad populum). I'm talking about a consensus among some sort of expert or authority, be it a scientific, philosophical, or religious one.
I used logic to arrive at the conclusion.
You and I would both agree that the day it pops out, it's a baby that shouldn't be killed. For me, from that point, it's a very simple exercise.
I simply ask a series of questions.
10 minutes before it popped out, was it effectively the same being?
10 hours?
10 days?
10 days and an hour?
and 2?
And 3? etc.
I fully recognize that as I work back, it gets less and less obvious. What I, and no other human can do is tell anyone the magical moment it shifted from "not OK to kill" to "ok to kill".
Once I recognized that reality, I was no longer pro-choice. And, I used to be VERY pro-choice
This post was edited on 5/17/19 at 12:05 pm
Posted on 5/17/19 at 12:50 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
I fully recognize that as I work back, it gets less and less obvious. What I, and no other human can do is tell anyone the magical moment it shifted from "not OK to kill" to "ok to kill".
Once I recognized that reality, I was no longer pro-choice. And, I used to be VERY pro-choice
There isn't a magical moment. That's why some states are passing heartbeat bills. That's different than conception, is it not?
That's why I am saying that prancing around here saying that conception is clearly the place to draw a line in the sand is silly and contradictory.
Posted on 5/17/19 at 12:55 pm to cahoots
quote:yes.
There isn't a magical moment. That's why some states are passing heartbeat bills. That's different than conception, is it not?
But, I'm talking about how I personally arrived at where I am.
If we look at it as a number line with conception on one end and baby on the outside at the other.........with the requisite infinite number of points between............and we agree on the right side it's in the "can't be killed" category...........my point is that even if we agree that the line's origination point it is in the "can be killed" category, we have NO WAY of getting from there to here.
quote:Well, I don't say that and frankly, it's unnecessary to say because women don't know they're pregnant at conception.
That's why I am saying that prancing around here saying that conception is clearly the place to draw a line in the sand is silly and contradictory.
Posted on 5/17/19 at 12:55 pm to cahoots
quote:still not relevant. you can't even get all scientists to agree on scientific matters, much less things outside of science. just out of curiosity, do you know anyone who denies that there is no personhood gap between parents and offspring? or that a mother does not have the right to murder a baby for convenience?
I'm not talking about a consensus in the sense of the masses (ad populum). I'm talking about a consensus among some sort of expert or authority, be it a scientific, philosophical, or religious one.
quote:again, tell me who the christians are that "disagree" with the verses i cited. or how about you telling me why you disagree with the verses.
he verses that not all Christian faiths even agree upon
quote:yet you still came to the wrong conclusion on both points.
No, I am considering the entire spectrum of knowledge
Posted on 5/17/19 at 1:08 pm to helluvaday
quote:there are studies that put this number at the end of 4 weeks
Heartbeats detected around 8 weeks
quote:there are studies that put this number at 45 days, perhaps sooner. that just when nascent brain activity can be detected, not when it actually starts
Brain activity between 12-16 weeks.
quote:the fetus is a person at the moment of conception. at that point, ending the pregnancy for convenience is murder
brain activity is the metric I feel should dictate abortion cut off
Posted on 5/17/19 at 1:11 pm to cahoots
quote:it's neither silly nor contradictory. that's when it is a person.
prancing around here saying that conception is clearly the place to draw a line in the sand is silly and contradictory
Posted on 5/17/19 at 1:18 pm to bfniii
quote:
still not relevant. you can't even get all scientists to agree on scientific matters, much less things outside of science. just out of curiosity, do you know anyone who denies that there is no personhood gap between parents and offspring? or that a mother does not have the right to murder a baby for convenience?
Dude, the entire concept of fertilization requires scientific research and understanding. So you want to rely on science to tell you part of the story, but then you want to draw your own conclusions?
It's not like the writers of the bible knew what was happening.
This post was edited on 5/17/19 at 1:26 pm
Posted on 5/17/19 at 2:13 pm to cahoots
i asked 2 questions and you answered neither. that says alot.
quote:but not personhood right? becoming a human being isn't merely the process of fertilization
the entire concept of fertilization requires scientific research and understanding
quote:precisely. that sounds totally reasonable. science is conveyed to us by scientists who are less than perfect
So you want to rely on science to tell you part of the story, but then you want to draw your own conclusions
quote:what does the bible say that is wrong?
It's not like the writers of the bible knew what was happening
Posted on 5/17/19 at 2:52 pm to bfniii
quote:
but not personhood right? becoming a human being isn't merely the process of fertilization
I'm confused. You said life begins at conception? Are you saying that's wrong now?
This post was edited on 5/17/19 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 5/17/19 at 2:53 pm to bfniii
So once again we have the Bible thumpers opposing abortion because they are brainwashed by a bunch of people in robes.
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