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Message
re: Pitching staff injuries
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:04 am to LSUGrad9295
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:04 am to LSUGrad9295
But are the ones who are putting the blame on Dunn really the ones who don't know anything about baseball?
1
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:06 am to clamdip
quote:False
9 months of full on practice
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:10 am to sta4ever
Throwing is not the issue. Not throwing properly, not warming up properly and not doing the adequate amount of training necessary to throw in games the duration of a college season is the cause for injuries. With a pattern of injuries on the pitching staff like LSU has I would be more likely to question Coach Dunn and the arm care/ throwing program he has put in place for the pitchers on staff.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:10 am to CottonWasKing
quote:
56% of Tommy John surgeries are done on kids under 21 years old. It’s a problem but it’s not a problem unique to LSU
What's crazy is you have parents wanting to get their kids Tommy John surgery when they are not even hurt.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:12 am to Courvillicious
quote:
But are the ones who are putting the blame on Dunn really the ones who don't know anything about baseball?
What's daddio been up to?
This post was edited on 3/20/19 at 10:12 am
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:17 am to Howyouluhdat
quote:Idiots. The surgery itself doesn't help a kid throw harder or better. When that does happen, it's from shutting completely down for 3-4 months and rebuilding the arm for the next 8 through a slow progression. That can be done without surgery.
What's crazy is you have parents wanting to get their kids Tommy John surgery when they are not even hurt.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:20 am to Howyouluhdat
(no message)
This post was edited on 3/20/19 at 10:21 am
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:33 am to Freebirds
Yes, I agree, there are several issues at play.
1) Way too much throwing in travel ball at an age in which the body is developing(The kids pitch, then play in the field, along with practice 3 days or more a week. And they are doing this almost year round)
2) Bad Mechanics-90% or more of dads, travel ball coaches and high school coaches really don't know what good mechanics are. By the time they get to college, it is really difficult to change.(the kid is throwing 90, he isn't going to change unless he gets hurt, and that is a big maybe even then. And sadly, many believe if you have high velocity, that your mechanics must be good. Not true!)
3. Focus on high velocity-The kids know at an early age that 90 is the magic number for college ball. They and their parents seek out anyway they can get velocity up. This leads to overthrowing at a time when the body can't handle that stress. Microtears start and can lead to a full tear of the UCL, labrum tears, and general arm soreness.
4. Lack of proper preparation for game intensity throwing- This is something that is being debated among surgeons, physical therapists and others. What is the proper way to get a pitcher ready for game level intensity and quantity pitch demand? Some are starting to implement an off season program that emphasizes exercises that prepare the muscles and ligaments for the load of the season. Most pitchers have imbalances that place additional stress on the arm that can easily be addressed with a proper program. I think there is much validity to this thinking, but more research needs to be done. However, I would bet most coaches are doing things much like they have done for years and years. Unfortunately, what worked in the past will probably not work in the future due to the travel ball growth.
1) Way too much throwing in travel ball at an age in which the body is developing(The kids pitch, then play in the field, along with practice 3 days or more a week. And they are doing this almost year round)
2) Bad Mechanics-90% or more of dads, travel ball coaches and high school coaches really don't know what good mechanics are. By the time they get to college, it is really difficult to change.(the kid is throwing 90, he isn't going to change unless he gets hurt, and that is a big maybe even then. And sadly, many believe if you have high velocity, that your mechanics must be good. Not true!)
3. Focus on high velocity-The kids know at an early age that 90 is the magic number for college ball. They and their parents seek out anyway they can get velocity up. This leads to overthrowing at a time when the body can't handle that stress. Microtears start and can lead to a full tear of the UCL, labrum tears, and general arm soreness.
4. Lack of proper preparation for game intensity throwing- This is something that is being debated among surgeons, physical therapists and others. What is the proper way to get a pitcher ready for game level intensity and quantity pitch demand? Some are starting to implement an off season program that emphasizes exercises that prepare the muscles and ligaments for the load of the season. Most pitchers have imbalances that place additional stress on the arm that can easily be addressed with a proper program. I think there is much validity to this thinking, but more research needs to be done. However, I would bet most coaches are doing things much like they have done for years and years. Unfortunately, what worked in the past will probably not work in the future due to the travel ball growth.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:46 am to deathvalleytiger10
quote:
2) Bad Mechanics-90% or more of dads, travel ball coaches and high school coaches really don't know what good mechanics are.
quote:These two are one in the same. In today's game and culture, good mechanics = getting the most out of the arm. The priority is on throwing harder which means more lower body power, balance, flexibility. Things that sound good and result in an arm that can throw harder, longer. And everyone teaches these things now at every level. If the priority were on safety and protecting the longevity of the arm, then we'd ask kids to soft toss. That's just not the reality.
3. Focus on high velocity
quote:I agree with this to an extent. There definitely has to be some offseason strength program, but how do you handle different lifestyles and cultures? Playing other sports... other life events... or simply letting a kid be a kid. How do you balance the crowd who says "all this baseball is just too much" while also telling the kid he has to keep up with this training and strength schedule when he's not playing baseball?
4. Lack of proper preparation for game intensity throwing- This is something that is being debated among surgeons, physical therapists and others. What is the proper way to get a pitcher ready for game level intensity and quantity pitch demand? Some are starting to implement an off season program that emphasizes exercises that prepare the muscles and ligaments for the load of the season. Most pitchers have imbalances that place additional stress on the arm that can easily be addressed with a proper program. I think there is much validity to this thinking, but more research needs to be done. However, I would bet most coaches are doing things much like they have done for years and years. Unfortunately, what worked in the past will probably not work in the future due to the travel ball growth.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:51 am to ell_13
quote:
These two are one in the same.
Not even close to the same. This thinking is another reason for so many injuries.
There are tons and tons of kids throwing hard with bad mechanics that lead to arm soreness and injuries.
The mechanics can be improved and the pain goes away and the stress on the arm is decreased.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:54 am to deathvalleytiger10
Has anyone ran the numbers to see what the number of Arm Injuries were before Dunn arrived and since Dunn has been here? Also, how do our Arm Injury numbers compare with other programs across the country?
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:55 am to ell_13
quote:
I agree with this to an extent. There definitely has to be some offseason strength program, but how do you handle different lifestyles and cultures? Playing other sports... other life events... or simply letting a kid be a kid. How do you balance the crowd who says "all this baseball is just too much" while also telling the kid he has to keep up with this training and strength schedule when he's not playing baseball?
All valid points. My main focus in that last point was on the elite guys. The ones that are now headed to college, in college and beyond. Those are the ones the OP was discussing. They absolutely should be focusing on preparation, much more so than younger kids.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:56 am to deathvalleytiger10
quote:
There are tons and tons of kids throwing hard with bad mechanics that lead to arm soreness and injuries.
The mechanics can be improved and the pain goes away and the stress on the arm is decreased.
The thing is that you have guys with great mechanics who don’t throw hard and their UCL tears.
You have guys with terrible mechanics who throw hard that have zero arm problems.
Then the opposite of both of those are true. Guys who seemingly do everything right still have Tommy John surgery every year. It’s frustratingly baffling on what’s causing it because it effects every type of pitcher and that’s what makes it so hard to fix.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 10:59 am to deathvalleytiger10
quote:Mostly in the shoulder.
There are tons and tons of kids throwing hard with bad mechanics that lead to arm soreness and injuries.
quote:I don't care what you do. Throwing 90+ is going to stress the arm somewhere. It's the laws of physics. Potential energy to kinetic from the legs and torso through the shoulder, elbow, wrist and fingers. But the most potential is stored in the shoulder and elbow if you want to throw your hardest. Period. There's no way around that. Throwing in its simplest form is using our soft tissue as a slingshot.
The mechanics can be improved and the pain goes away and the stress on the arm is decreased.
This post was edited on 3/20/19 at 11:02 am
Posted on 3/20/19 at 11:07 am to CottonWasKing
quote:
The thing is that you have guys with great mechanics who don’t throw hard and their UCL tears.
You have guys with terrible mechanics who throw hard that have zero arm problems.
Lots of anomalies and indeed it is extremely frustrating.
But, there are some guys on the leading edge of this issue that are getting rid of arm pain, decreasing stress on the arm, while at the same time increasing velocity.
Hopefully their ideas will take hold in the baseball community and maybe we can get some decrease in these injuries.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 11:17 am to Tony Camaro
The strive for more and more velocity is a big part of the soreness and injuries with these guys.. 99.9 % of people aren’t designed to be able to throw a mid nineties fastball but the amount of guys getting there and getting beyond their bodies limit is putting more and more stress on their arms
Posted on 3/20/19 at 11:20 am to ell_13
quote:
Mostly in the shoulder.
Maybe you have statistics to back this up. However, the biggest rise in arm injuries as been UCL related.
quote:
I don't care what you do. Throwing 90+ is going to stress the arm somewhere.
100% correct! But, stress can be reduced with subtle changes to mechanics. But, even then some people will get hurt. There is no full proof injury prevention plan.
Posted on 3/20/19 at 11:21 am to Tony Camaro
Fire pulmonary, fire javi
Posted on 3/20/19 at 11:37 am to deathvalleytiger10
quote:
Maybe you have statistics to back this up. However, the biggest rise in arm injuries as been UCL related.
That’s because bad mechanics hurt the shoulder and good mechanics moves the stress down the arm to the elbow.
More kids have access to quality coaches which reduces shoulder injuries but increases elbow issues
Posted on 3/20/19 at 11:39 am to deathvalleytiger10
quote:In the past, bad mechanics lead to shoulder injuries. As mechanics got "better" (according so some), kids started throwing harder and putting more stress on the elbow. It's my opinion that the increase in elbow injuries is partially, if not mostly, attributed to kids being taught mechanics centered on throwing harder for longer. There's a direct correlation with the increase in UCL tears with the increase of high schoolers throwing 90+ mph.
However, the biggest rise in arm injuries as been UCL related.
quote:The stress has to go somewhere. No one is throwing a baseball without stressing the tendons and ligaments that store the most energy. It's why tall, lanky guys are typically the harder throwers.
stress can be reduced with subtle changes to mechanics. But, even then some people will get hurt. There is no full proof injury prevention plan.
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