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Started By
Message
re: Handgun - Knockdown Power vs Concealment
Posted on 4/1/18 at 9:39 pm to Kreg Jennings
Posted on 4/1/18 at 9:39 pm to Kreg Jennings
quote:
held 12 in the clip
It’s a magazine, not a clip.
1
Posted on 4/2/18 at 3:04 am to samson73103
You know what he means. Gtfo with that grammar nazi shite
Posted on 4/2/18 at 7:31 am to Kirk Herbstreit
Why mess with 3 calibers that are essentially the same? I’d consider picking one and stockpiling ammo that you can run through all your pistols.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 8:58 am to Kreg Jennings
quote:
Kreg Jennings
Go read established research and formulate your own opinions. Each caliber has benefits. The notion that a handgun has "knockdown" or "stopping" power is unrealistic. Experts will tell you that a handgun is a deterrent and buys you time to get to your shotgun/rifle.
Handguns are like drills. In order for a handgun to be effective at stopping a threat, you have to put be accurate enough to hit a vital organ/spine. If you fail to do that, then the idea should be maximum blood loss. The best way to do that is with as many rounds in as tight of a group as possible.
Now, if you look at the size hole from a 9mm to a .45, you'd have a dime fitting within a nickle. The real noticeable difference here is the loss of 2-4 extra rounds of ammo in the magazine with the larger caliber. In a life or death situation, your heart will be pumping and the adrenaline dump will be significant. You're going to really want 3 extra rounds when your slide locks back and you've hit everything but the bad guy.
I like the 9mm a whole lot because in today's world, the benefits of a bigger round just isn't what it use to be.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 3:01 pm to olgoi khorkhoi
quote:
Why mess with 3 calibers that are essentially the same? I’d consider picking one and stockpiling ammo that you can run through all your pistols.
What the heck is the fun in that?
I have .22, .380, .357, 9mm, .45, 10mm.
I have a decent stock pile of all of those except for the .380.
I reload my ammo though.
I'm wanting something bigger in a revolver. Probably nothing bigger than a .44
Posted on 4/2/18 at 3:09 pm to dbuchanon
quote:
I wouldn't think you'd want a howitzer firing inside your home.. one miss and you hurt someone you love on the other side of the wall
Pretty much any round will go through multiple layers of dry wall.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 3:46 pm to Kreg Jennings
As was noted by the first reply to your query, you've received an array of responses - much of which you might wish to ignore. 
The FBI has studied this in depth. The FBI has adopted the 9mm handgun (Glock) as its default weapon to issue to agents. Here are the results of their study, along with their rationale:
FBI Study
For the TL;DR crowd, here are the conclusions from the FBI study:
CONCLUSION
While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, with no discernible increase in terminal performance.
Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile.
Just the FBI's $.02 worth.
The FBI has studied this in depth. The FBI has adopted the 9mm handgun (Glock) as its default weapon to issue to agents. Here are the results of their study, along with their rationale:
FBI Study
For the TL;DR crowd, here are the conclusions from the FBI study:
CONCLUSION
While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, with no discernible increase in terminal performance.
Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile.
Just the FBI's $.02 worth.
This post was edited on 4/2/18 at 4:12 pm
Posted on 4/2/18 at 4:21 pm to dawg23
I think the FBI report is perfectly valid and this is not intended to be a criticism of it. I just wonder how similar are the needs of an FBI officer and a civilian in a personal defense scenario? I think it's a lot more likely that the FBI agent would be in an extended gunfight than the civilian would. Therefore higher capacity is much more important for the FBI agent.
The other school of thought is that you will likely only fire one or two rounds (if any) in a self-defense situation so make sure that they can make a big hole. This is sort of the Jeff Cooper argument. It's true that ammo is much improved these days but that applies to .45 just as much as it does 9mm.
I'm not advocating one or the other of these alternatives. In fact, I'm trying to decide in my own mind which is right for me. Every time I think I've figured it out, I see another study or test that changes my mind. Only one thing I know for sure, either option is better than a baseball bat.
The other school of thought is that you will likely only fire one or two rounds (if any) in a self-defense situation so make sure that they can make a big hole. This is sort of the Jeff Cooper argument. It's true that ammo is much improved these days but that applies to .45 just as much as it does 9mm.
I'm not advocating one or the other of these alternatives. In fact, I'm trying to decide in my own mind which is right for me. Every time I think I've figured it out, I see another study or test that changes my mind. Only one thing I know for sure, either option is better than a baseball bat.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 5:40 pm to MountainTiger
quote:
I think it's a lot more likely that the FBI agent would be in an extended gunfight than the civilian would
I don’t think is is true. Most all gun fights end in just a few seconds.
That’s not always the case but 99.9% of the time.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 5:50 pm to MountainTiger
quote:
I wouldn't think you'd want a howitzer firing inside your home.. one miss and you hurt someone you love on the other side of the wall
Pretty much any round will go through multiple layers of dry wall.
Lots of YouTube videos demonstrating this, 12ga with number 8 birdshot will go through two interior walls and partially penetrate a third.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 6:29 pm to MountainTiger
quote:I don't claim to be an expert, but I'll share what Tom Givens told us in a recent class:
I just wonder how similar are the needs of an FBI officer and a civilian in a personal defense scenario? I think it's a lot more likely that the FBI agent would be in an extended gunfight than the civilian would. Therefore higher capacity is much more important for the FBI agent.
When he (and others) look for experiential data that are most relevant to CCW, he has not found a more relevant source than FBI agent-involved-shootings.
What we're told (and it makes sense to my redneck brain) is that FBI agents are virtually always in "plainclothes" mode (unless they are wearing identifying clothing at crime scenes or while making an apprehension). So FBI agents are attacked on a relatively frequent basis by criminals who don't realize they are picking an armed victim.
Tom uses the FBI data in researching gunfight distances, number of rounds fired etc. He thinks this info is clearly more valid/relevant for private citizens who carry concealed than data that's published for uniformed cops.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 6:40 pm to MountainTiger
quote:I wouldn't bank on that. Everything I've seen, heard, and read suggests a minimum of three, and that's for people who practice self defense drills and can make good hits. I practice quick draws with reps of 3 and 5, because I do not trust myself to make perfect hits in life or death situations.
The other school of thought is that you will likely only fire one or two rounds (if any) in a self-defense situation
I assume I'd let 'er rip with my 15+1. As long as the perp is a threat, he'll be catching lead
Posted on 4/2/18 at 6:57 pm to EA6B
quote:
Lots of YouTube videos demonstrating this, 12ga with number 8 birdshot will go through two interior walls and partially penetrate a third.
Yep and birdshot is all but useless for personal defense. Buckshot will go through a surprising number of walls. theboxotruth.com has a lot of (admittedly non-scientific) tests demonstrating the penetrating power of a variety of projectiles from rock salt to .45-70. The bottom line is that any round that is going to stop a bad guy is going to also pose a threat to good guys. So aim well and use ammo that penetrates enough but not too much.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 7:28 pm to MountainTiger
quote:This.
The bottom line is that any round that is going to stop a bad guy is going to also pose a threat to good guys. So aim well and use ammo that penetrates enough but not too much.
If your projectiles won't penetrate a flimsy sheetrock panel, it's unlikely to penetrate to the vital organs of the dude (or dudette) you suddenly need to stop.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 7:40 pm to dawg23
People who think sheetrock is a barrier have never done anything with sheetrock
Posted on 4/2/18 at 9:27 pm to Kreg Jennings
Capacity should not be a huge factor in a home defense situation. If you need 20 shots to shoot someone in your house, then you either need to practice a lot more, or you have a bigass house and you weren’t really in imminent danger.
I think about my two kids on each end of the house and my neighbors with kids...I’m not emptying a 16 round mag through walls like in the movies, hoping I hit the perp. One round to the head and maybe one follow up. You’d feel like shite if a stray round went through your neighbors 2 year old.
I think about my two kids on each end of the house and my neighbors with kids...I’m not emptying a 16 round mag through walls like in the movies, hoping I hit the perp. One round to the head and maybe one follow up. You’d feel like shite if a stray round went through your neighbors 2 year old.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 9:57 pm to Slickback
Sounds like all you need is a Derringer.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 10:26 pm to Slickback
quote:
I’m not emptying a 16 round mag through walls like in the movies, hoping I hit the perp.
You can think a high capacity magazine is useful AND not be reckless retard when using a firearm.
What if there are 4 perps in your home? Are you feeling better about your single stack 9mm then?
Posted on 4/2/18 at 10:38 pm to SabiDojo
6 rounds in mine and 6 in my wife’s 38. I feel pretty safe with that. If I need 16+ shots, I’m scared a couple are heading towards my kids rooms.
Posted on 4/2/18 at 10:42 pm to bapple
quote:
Knockdown power” is a myth created by Hollywood movies literally knocking down people with a shotgun blast. None of that would happen in real life.
There is “one shot stop” data out there for handguns. 45, 40, and 357 sig significantly out performed the 9mm.
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