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re: The Fundamental Flaw in every last God/No God thread ever on this board
Posted on 9/21/17 at 5:24 pm to ShortyRob
Posted on 9/21/17 at 5:24 pm to ShortyRob
I was a christian, then became an atheist. Now I am kind of in the middle.
In the end, neither side had all the answers. So my logical conclusion was simply, "I don't know".
It's really the only rational decision I could have after research, trying to involve myself with both sides. That we really just do not know.
I feel there is probably something greater than us. Not any religious version of "God" but just something. Defining it is simply childish, for if it is there, it is far beyond our brain power to be able to define such an amazing force or being.
So let's say God exist. In some sense. Well science does too. You can't tell me there isn't enough evidence for Evolution. Just stop. It's time to accept that it's far and simply the better idea when compared to creationism.
Now. That doesn't mean creationism is not real. If there is a higher power, it created something. I just believe the evolution(s)science has shown significant evidence of still occured. Maybe the "God" simply set things in motion.
My issue with the big bang theory is simple. Something creating from absolute nothing. Just never found out how that was possible. I have read tons of articles, read books on the theory, and just come to the same conclussion. The Universe is expanding, it was once smaller, but no one can answer how the original process occured. Yes I know of the bang itself and the negative, positive blah blah blah. I want the simple answer. How was it possible to have that level of energy create from absolute nothingness? It's just not possible. So SOMETHING had to start the process.
So I am right in the middle. I respect science, I think it is spot on in a lot of areas. I also respect the idea of something greater than us. I just choose not to put a face on said entity, nor define it's power. I can't, because I am not intelligent enough too(and neither are you).
In the end, neither side had all the answers. So my logical conclusion was simply, "I don't know".
It's really the only rational decision I could have after research, trying to involve myself with both sides. That we really just do not know.
I feel there is probably something greater than us. Not any religious version of "God" but just something. Defining it is simply childish, for if it is there, it is far beyond our brain power to be able to define such an amazing force or being.
So let's say God exist. In some sense. Well science does too. You can't tell me there isn't enough evidence for Evolution. Just stop. It's time to accept that it's far and simply the better idea when compared to creationism.
Now. That doesn't mean creationism is not real. If there is a higher power, it created something. I just believe the evolution(s)science has shown significant evidence of still occured. Maybe the "God" simply set things in motion.
My issue with the big bang theory is simple. Something creating from absolute nothing. Just never found out how that was possible. I have read tons of articles, read books on the theory, and just come to the same conclussion. The Universe is expanding, it was once smaller, but no one can answer how the original process occured. Yes I know of the bang itself and the negative, positive blah blah blah. I want the simple answer. How was it possible to have that level of energy create from absolute nothingness? It's just not possible. So SOMETHING had to start the process.
So I am right in the middle. I respect science, I think it is spot on in a lot of areas. I also respect the idea of something greater than us. I just choose not to put a face on said entity, nor define it's power. I can't, because I am not intelligent enough too(and neither are you).
1
Posted on 9/21/17 at 5:25 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:I alluded to this in another thread but I believe that agnosticism is not actually a third category along side atheists and theists.
Agnosticism is the only evidence-based stance.
All theists and atheists might say they "know" there is a God or they "know" there is no God, but in reality, no one really "knows". Theists believe there is a God and atheists believe there is no God. Since only omniscience and/or omnipresence are suitable characteristics for any human to know for sure outside of direct, supernatural revelation from said God, atheism and theism both fall victim to the requirement of faith and belief.
Given that no one can possibly "know" one way or the other, both sides have to have faith regarding the existence of God (or god/gods). Agnosticism, therefore, exists to varying degrees within both groups, making a third distinction irrelevant. It's my opinion, therefore, that self-professed agnostics either are atheists that would possibly be open to become theists if they believed knowledge about God could be obtained, or they are theists who believe that the object of their theism cannot be known or understood for certain (if at all).
My question to you, rbWarEagle, is this: do you, personally, believe that a deity of some sort exists?
Posted on 9/21/17 at 5:35 pm to themunch
quote:
Non belief does not equate to non existence
Not true, re things of the 'Spirit'; think Love and Beauty...and God above all. "He that seeks to know God...MUST FIRST BELIEVE that He exists" (Good Book).
God is a matter of choice...at least as far as we are concerned. And for good reason...lest God be (rightly so) accused of creating Beings that are coerced (by the objective truth of God's existence) into worshiping God. Which would be the ultimate act of narcissism.
To each their own.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 6:12 pm to ShortyRob
I worship at the altar of Logic and Reason. Logic/Reason was here before I was born, it will be here after I die. The Universe operates within the confines of Logic/Reason. It is thru Logic/Reason that Man has advanced and demonstrated some control over the Universe. Logic/Reason guides me, I follow Logic/Reason to the best of my ability. I trust it.
I might not understand an all knowing, immortal, all powerful God, but I can grasp Logic/Reason.
I might not understand an all knowing, immortal, all powerful God, but I can grasp Logic/Reason.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 6:41 pm to Stingray
Where are all the old names from 2007-10 era?!
I only see a couple...
I only see a couple...
Posted on 9/21/17 at 6:58 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:to someone who is ignorant. there's plenty of evidence for God. people who say there isn't are usually making a category mistake of some kind
Agnosticism is the only evidence-based stance
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:00 pm to ShortyRob
quote:other than the bible would be 100% corroborated.
Even if we found definitive evidence that the universe HAD to have been created by a supreme being, that wouldn't say shite about the Bible.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:02 pm to ShortyRob
quote:of course it means precisely that. why would you say otherwise?
if there was A creator at whatever the "beginning" of everything was doesn't actually address if that creator was the cause of OUR universe's beginning
quote:except that reality and the bible would be in 100% agreement
or if that creator is an actively participative in his creation.
Hence, it really doesn't address the Bible at all
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:03 pm to tommy2tone1999
quote:of course we are. God has revealed himself to by far the vast majority of humanity and those revelations have been substantiated time and time again
Neither one is properly equipped
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:11 pm to ShortyRob
quote:yes it does. you can say that this universe came into being through some proximate cause but, all things had to come from some ultimate creative cause (ex nihilo, nihil fit) which dovetails exactly with what the bible says
Not regarding the God of the Bible which is what I was responding to
quote:and how does this not agree with what the bible says? the bible doesn't contradict this because it says that all things were ultimately created by God, which is true
We only would have evidence in OUR universe
quote:what makes you think anyone is making the case he has done that? the revelations recorded in the bible are not about the morals of a particular time. they are about God's character, which is timeless, et al
he certainly wouldn't feel compelled to teach people according to any particular time's morality
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:12 pm to bfniii
quote:
all things had to come from some ultimate creative cause
Says who?
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:19 pm to SFVtiger
quote:while this is a sound exegetical principle, the bible works out to be a literary exception historically because it has not contradicted anything empirical before or since, provided we exercise reasonable exegetical principles such as acknowledging that people were recording in the phenomenal language of their day. most critics are unable to be that equitable
why judge a document's authenticity by a standard that did not exist when it was made
quote:you should be able to. we know mathematically that while there are potential infinites, there is no such thing as actual infinites.
I cannot come close to imagining a universe that had no beginning
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:28 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
All theists and atheists might say they "know" there is a God or they "know" there is no God, but in reality, no one really "knows".
Agreed. Which is why agnosticism is the only evidence-based position.
quote:
My question to you, rbWarEagle, is this: do you, personally, believe that a deity of some sort exists?
I'd like to. I think there is a better likelihood that aliens exist than some omniscient, omnipresent deity.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:30 pm to bfniii
quote:
to someone who is ignorant. there's plenty of evidence for God. people who say there isn't are usually making a category mistake of some kind
No, there is no evidence for a god. No such proof could possibly exist and to suggest otherwise is ignorant or foolish. Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:33 pm to ShortyRob
quote:I can't say i'm on board with this. The pantheistic religions weren't concerned with ultimate creation. They were trying to explain empirical phenomena with supernatural language. Pretty big difference with what the abrahamic monotheists were doing. Moreover, they really didn't posit an ultimate creator - the ultimate authority in all things (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, everlasting, unassailable, ultimate source of righteousness, ultimate source of love, etc). The pagan gods reflected the vagaries of humanity. The two groups were just trying to accomplish two different things. For example, thales posited that all things arose from the primordial water. That's not the same as attributing all things to a personal, loving creator.
so were the Greeks with the Greek Gods, Romans, the Norse and hell, the Native Americans with their Sun Gods.
quote:again it does, particularly if we make the distinction between what the biblical authors were doing and what the pantheists were doing.
I don't think that qualifies as support for the idea of the God of the Bible
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:36 pm to EyeTwentyNole
quote:wow. you know some stupid religious people and are not at all familiar with the academic community such as theologians, analytic philosophers, epistemologists, etc.
Seems to me the religious are those who read a book and said that's it case closed
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:38 pm to bfniii
quote:
there's plenty of evidence for God.
Name one piece of verified evidence for the existence of God.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:39 pm to BamaAtl
Spoiler alert: he's going to stretch the limits of the definition of the word "evidence"
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:39 pm to bmy
quote:ugh. God is the uncaused cause, the prime mover. This is the kind of category mistake i was referring to. You're asking for a "cause" (temporal, spatial, serial, etc) for an uncaused thing. Philosophically speaking, if we know there are contingent things (which there are) then we know something must be necessary.
Where did the creative force responsible for our universe come from?
quote:I'm pretty sure you haven't studied philosophy of religion
I'm pretty sure that's where all theist arguments fall apart.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:41 pm to bfniii
quote:
God is the uncaused cause, the prime mover.
That's begging the question. If the universe needs a creator, then the creator also needs a creator, and the creator of the creator needs a creator, ad infinitum.
To say otherwise is to admit you're willing to forgo logic for supernatural explanations.
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