re: The Fundamental Flaw in every last God/No God thread ever on this board

A quick google search would help him out.

God cannot lie – Titus 1:2

God cannot sin – James 1:13

God cannot deny Himself – 2 Timothy 2:11-13

Yep, that's about what I expected.

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It's tough sometimes, but I'm glad He created Humanity...for those who triumph and "enter therein". For the rest...no regret or pain in non-existence; and no legit gripe that God rigged the Game. It's all on us.

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So what happens to people who were born in Iran and have never seen a Bible? They go to hell? Or if they live a good life they go to heaven?

If they go to hell... That's a pretty raw deal no? They were just created to be tortured for eternity

If they go to heaven... Why am I burdened with having to make a decision that involves eternal torture when they were not? (If we both live decent lives as non believers)

That never made sense to me

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has full knowledge of people's choices before they are made, his decision

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what decision did that mentally challenged person make justifies his situation? what did the infant do to warrant death so early?

you are saying's PEOPLE'S choices, well, they are people... so "god" has to be punishing those individuals, not using them to punish or "be just" towards someone else.... because then it would injustice to the the mentally challenged person and the infant (again, they too are individuals to be dealt with on their own, according to the Christian worldview/tennants) to use them as teaching lessons for someone else as a means of displaying a "just" cause....

let me guess.... god is mysterious, and we can't know his will or his ways, and even in those situations, god will use it for good.... but if you could ask the infant or the mentally challenged individuals, i'm sure they'd tell you they are getting a raw deal, if that's the case... taking an innocent life as a means of turning it into good.... helluva concept, i'll give you that....

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So what happens to people who were born in Iran and have never seen a Bible? They go to hell? Or if they live a good life they go to heaven?

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They go to Hell. The Bible says that the only way to God (Heaven) is through Jesus Christ. If they don't know Jesus and have faith in His sacrifice, they will perish. It's why Jesus told His disciples to go throughout the world preaching the message of the gospel. Missionaries are responsible for telling people in far-off lands about Jesus so that they have the opportunity to have salvation.

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If they go to hell... That's a pretty raw deal no? They were just created to be tortured for eternity

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Why a "raw deal"? If God is God and we are His creations, why is it wrong for God to make something for the sake of destroying it?

"You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" -Romans 9:19-22

The problem is that people tend to set God and man on equal footing (or put man above God) and assume God owes us happiness and eternal bliss or else He's cruel and unjust. However if God created humans and said "you have to do everything I say or I'll destroy you", then why is it wrong for God to destroy us for not meeting His terms?

The Bible paints a picture of all of mankind being guilty before God and deserving destruction. Therefore, it is just for God to punish everyone and "unfair" for God to show mercy to anyone. That's why Jesus died on the cross: to pay the punishment that sin deserves for anyone who puts their trust in Him. Jesus paid the price so that others don't have to.

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If they go to heaven... Why am I burdened with having to make a decision that involves eternal torture when they were not? (If we both live decent lives as non believers)

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That's a good observation and it's something I differ on with other Christians who believe in an age of accountability or "innocence" of those in other places of the world, because it makes salvation by ignorance rather than by faith in Christ.

If everyone who was ignorant of Jesus got to go to Heaven, it would be mean to preach the gospel to them and give them a chance to reject it and go to Hell. If children were innocent and deserving of Heaven until some age of accountability, it would be better for them if we aborted them in the womb or killed them young so that they could spend eternity in paradise rather than give them a chance to grow up and reject the faith. That would be the logical conclusion, at least.

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So God is going to sentence the hundreds of millions of people who were living in remote areas of the world and never heard the gospel to an eternity of pain because they didn't believe in a religion they had never heard of?

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Yes. I can sense the thoughts of injustice you are having. All humanity was guilty by Adam's sin and out own sins just compound our guilty before a perfectly sinless God. All people are guilty whether Jesus died or not; Jesus' death just provided a means for people to escape judgement.

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I have created (well, helped to create) one human: my son. Does that give me the right to sentence him to torture or death for disobeying or disagreeing with me? My dogs are my property, but if I bred them for the sake of torturing or killing the puppies everyone would recognize me as a psychopath.

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Sorry but even conceiving/birthing/raising children is of no comparison to the relationship we have to God in regard the creator/creature distinction.

In an atheistic worldview, there is no objective reason to judge you or anyone else negatively for torturing and killing puppies. God gave humanity a mandate to subdue and take care of the earth, which includes its animals, which is why we know that it's "wrong" to treat those creatures in such a way. In such a worldview, there isn't any objective reason to say God is cruel even if you thought that we were remotely on the same level as God (we aren't).

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I suppose I just can't get behind the argument that God can do whatever he wants to his creations when we hold deeply imperfect humans to a much higher moral standard.

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Again, I think your issue (as it always is when having a discussion on the "injustice" or "unfairness" of God to punish people) is that you either have too high a view of mankind or too low a view of God in the God-man relationship.

There's a reason why Paul compares our relationship to God as a potter who makes one clay pot for good use and another for destruction. God can and does bestow love and affection on humanity but He didn't have to. If the almighty who created the stars and planets wanted to create an "animal" like us for the purpose of destroying us, it's His prerogative and He isn't unjust or cruel to do so.

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If the almighty who created the stars and planets wanted to create an "animal" like us for the purpose of destroying us, it's His prerogative and He isn't unjust or cruel to do so.

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I see we have now reached the customary circular reasoning stage of the argument for God.

"God is good."

"But he does things that seem evil, such as condemning people for the actions of an ancestor from thousands of years ago and sentencing millions to an eternity of torture for not knowing information that no one ever told them."

"But God is good because literally anything He does is good because He is the one who did it."

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So what happens to people who were born in Iran and have never seen a Bible? They go to hell? Or if they live a good life they go to heaven? If they go to hell... That's a pretty raw deal no? They were just created to be tortured for eternity If they go to heaven... Why am I burdened with having to make a decision that involves eternal torture when they were not? (If we both live decent lives as non believers) That never made sense to me

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Out of the loop for a while, W; and I surely do not speak for Christianity per se, as a lot of my opinions are just that.

And IMO, we "go to Heaven" by degree; degrees of Feeling...Spirit. "He that seweth sparingly shall reap sparingly and he that seweth bountifully shall reap bountifully" (Scripture). This indicates that there will be degrees of "Heaven", different rewards custom tailored to each individual. Imagine that scenario, and it would likely look a lot like today's Universe and this World.

Quantum Physics Theory re Parallel Universes is likely a close model of what we can expect. Who you are and what you experience - through the lens of your chosen belief - both now and in the kind of character you daily choose, MUST be the determining factor of your tomorrow. If one is moving forward toward Love (Unity/Appreciation/Respect of that which is other than Self)...then one is essentially *going to Heaven*. If one is moving away from Love...then one is *going to Hell*. Love is one poll...the Opposite of Love is the other.

Simply put, our beliefs and choices re the character/perceptive paradigm which we freely choose today, forms who we are tomorrow. And the next life as well. Just my opinion. Like you, I find it ludicrous to believe that something as serious as eternal salvation or eternal damnation could be decided in a single life. Hell...I'm just getting started. And already planning my next life.

You're good. And you'll likely move toward the perfection of Jesus Christ and His offer to serve and be cleansed (in conscience) sooner or later. Because neither Knowledge nor desire can make us all that we really hope to be. It's a high bar. And a worthy challenge.