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re: Is Everything "In A Bubble" Right Now?

Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:18 pm to
Posted by Ric Flair
Charlotte
Member since Oct 2005
13756 posts
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:18 pm to
quote:

Long beer


I would argue that beer is another bubble (craft beer). Way too many local breweries in most large cities to be sustainable long term.
Posted by LSU fan 246
Member since Oct 2005
90567 posts
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:37 pm to
That bubble is already done.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
432453 posts
Posted on 9/22/17 at 8:57 am to
quote:

But they're just playing the central bankers' game of musical chairs--they dance or they have to quit and find employment in another type of career.

i am not saying that the story begins and ends with the forces driving these "investments", but like you said, they have to justify their existence (and with more data coming out about how effective they actually are, this requires lots of risky/aggro moves) so they flood markets to artificially increase the values of these markets

quote:

It's the classic financial advisors who are selling people on bullshite (i.e., that stocks are currently a good investment because of their dividend yield relative to bond yields) once again. You can hardly blame them either though. They're just doing their jobs.

i somewhat blame them b/c they aren't really good at their jobs but are having their value masked by the insanity of the current market. but, this thread is about "everything being a bubble" and these people clearly are promoting a bubble niche/economy. i can blame them for that

quote:

we're just experiencing overinflated asset prices everywhere because nobody knows what else is better to do,

i agree, but i think there are mini-bubbles within the larger economy. i still think tech is a legit bubble

just take Amazon. they are solely focused on pumping up their stock over profits. that model is being copied everywhere in tech. at some point, that bubble will pop and once the confidence is lost, the whole industry will implode. the tech over-valuation is clearly a bubble b/c it's insanely inflated based on confidence that a very specific inflation will continue and little else. yes tech does have some tangible value, but so did the tulips who were owned after the crash or real estate in 2009

quote:

There are people out there who make a pretty good case that recent U.S. stock market appreciation is correlated to the combined asset balances of the FRB, ECB, BOJ, & PBOC (plus the BOE, SNB, etc.). So even as the Fed begins to wind down, that doesn't mean that other major central banks won't keep propping things up. The Swiss National Bank alone has about $80 billion invested in the U.S. stock market, or about $10,000 for every man, woman, and child in Switzerland. Crazy times.

i agree and i use this more of an example to counter people who claim the US is about to fall. there is no replacement for the US, b/c everyone who may be able to overtake us is in worse positions and investing here

certainly this has extreme effects in isolated examples (like real estate in certain areas) but a much larger macro effect overall
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
432453 posts
Posted on 9/22/17 at 8:58 am to
craft beer and cupcake startups. the suburban sideline bubbles of the early 2010s
This post was edited on 9/22/17 at 8:59 am
Posted by barry
Location, Location, Location
Member since Aug 2006
50463 posts
Posted on 9/22/17 at 11:20 am to
quote:

after the RE crash in 2008, for example, they flooded the oil futures market with speculation, which inflated the shite out of those prices


Well thats not true at all, oil was running up to 100+ before the crash.
Posted by barry
Location, Location, Location
Member since Aug 2006
50463 posts
Posted on 9/22/17 at 11:22 am to
It's my opinion that this crazy run is due to insanely cheap money and the growing wealth gap. There are too many rich people with no place to put their money and are all searching for any decent return.

If you know some VC's or PE guys and have half a business plan and a semblance of street cred you could get a few million bucks right now.
Posted by Omada
Member since Jun 2015
695 posts
Posted on 9/22/17 at 12:31 pm to
quote:

It's my opinion that this crazy run is due to insanely cheap money

Agreed.
quote:

and the growing wealth gap

I somewhat disagree. The "too much money and nowhere to put it" problem isn't just an issue for the wealthy (though admittedly they do have more than others) but for everyone and is a result of cheap money. Many people on this board and other forums aren't wealthy, but they are all searching for an acceptable return in a market environment that I've seen described as bad for value investing.

As far as the OP goes, I don't know if anything is or is not in a bubble. However, I like to tell myself that, "if everyone knows something is an opportunity, then it's no longer an opportunity." In fact, that's usually a good time to take profits or put in a trailing stop loss order because when everyone jumps into "obvious" opportunities, there won't be much more money and people to push it further.
Posted by GenesChin
The Promise Land
Member since Feb 2012
37722 posts
Posted on 9/22/17 at 12:57 pm to
quote:

just take Amazon. they are solely focused on pumping up their stock over profits.


This is a stupid comment and clearly doesn't understand the Amazon strategy. They don't care at all about their stock price. Amazon's strategy/argument is they will have greater delayed profits than the PV of taking profits now. They have a clear plan of becoming profitable if they want


Now there is an argument the investment communprity are stupid and think that concept of delayed profitability works for other companies too. Except they pump up places like twitter who have no clear path to pumping out profits

This post was edited on 9/22/17 at 1:01 pm
Posted by LSUtoOmaha
Nashville
Member since Apr 2004
26602 posts
Posted on 9/22/17 at 1:52 pm to
Yeah Amazon could have a PE of 25 right now if they really wanted to
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 9/22/17 at 2:45 pm to
quote:

there are mini-bubbles within the larger economy. i still think tech is a legit bubble


Well, yeah, if everything is generally overvalued, then there will always be some niches that are worse than others. But I don't think the FAANG story is indicative of anything fundamentally askew with the way financial markets operate. Those corporations really are the bright spots of the macro picture, even if they might not be attractively valued at the moment.

The San Francisco unicorns get closer to being a classic example of a tulip-style bubble, but even there, it's not all euphoria. People are wary, and there seems to have been a peak around 2014 or so.

But that's just bankers and venture capitalists doing their best to pick winners, which they aren't that bad at doing, even though everything now is more difficult and inflated. Which brings us to...

quote:

how financial/investment guys aren't really actually that great at picking winning investments


We've talked mostly about the wheelers & dealers and dealmakers who sell deals, and not about the activist investors (Ackman, Icahn, etc.) and the true cold, calculating asset managers and hedge funds who actually get paid solely on picking winners and losers. (The VCs sort of do, but they are really just hoping for one big success story out of 10 as their usual business model.)

One thing that the near-ZIRP environment and popularity of passive investing through indices and ETFs has done, is it's made it much more difficult (related to dispersion metrics and other things) for active money managers to make a living picking individual assets. This doesn't make them any better or worse than they always were (there is always a give and take between active and passive strategies, according to Lasse Pedersen's theory of markets being "efficiently inefficient", to allow for reasonable profit margins for the active crowd), but it's been a huge problem for hedge funds the past several years. Even the HFT quant funds have had a terrible few years, since they make their profits from high-volume trading strategies that don't scale very well.

Which brings us to Grinold & Kahn's "Fundamental Law of Active Management", but I'll leave that for another time, as I am Baton Rouge bound this weekend...
Posted by LSUtoOmaha
Nashville
Member since Apr 2004
26602 posts
Posted on 9/22/17 at 4:59 pm to
I tend to think most hedge fund types could crush market returns with a million dollars to invest. Problem is when that number is in the hundreds of billions
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 9/24/17 at 10:02 pm to
Maybe, but it depends a lot on the type of investment strategy involved. There are so many different flavors of active investment strategies, and all professionals should be able to beat their benchmark. Generally speaking, the shorter the time horizon for the strategy, the higher the profit margin for beating any benchmark, but also the lower the scalability. The long horizon types of strategies (like classic Ben Graham value investing) is more scalable, but can make anybody investor look bad for years, through no fault of his own.

I've been thinking about launching an incubator hedge fund lately. (See e.g., LINK, or LINK, or LINK). The idea would be to construct an investment process using some of Hussman's metrics to be flexible in adjusting leverage ratios for passive investments. I think Hussman has the best underlying macro stock market analysis, but that he doesn't implement it very well. Designing an investment architecture that could beat him doesn't seem like the hard part. The hard part is getting the data sourcing component of it right, and improving upon Hussman's execution process in such a way as to include other stuff (when to do futures vs. options vs. int'l allocations vs. commodities/currencies, plus other selected targeted value buys), and how to convince potential investors that it's something more than just a gussied up market timing scheme.... which to be honest, it kinda is.

But screw it. If can throw in $100k or $200k into a startup incubator fund, and throw a few thousand dollars into setting up the paperwork, then at least I have a chance to draw legitimate outside investors in if it succeeds over the next 2-3 years. If you perform like crap, you lose a few thousand dollars in fees, plus you have to live with poor performance on your capital... but at least it's still your own money that you would have invested anyway. If you perform well and get outstanding returns during a 18-24 month bear market, and then hit the breaks at the right time, execute a 180-degree hard reverse, and lever up to beat the benchmark as the market goes bullish again, then that should be something difficult for potential investors to resist looking at, supposing that an auditable track record exists.

And of course, once you get $10-15 million in AUM, you can quit your day job and live off the management fees, while also paying other people to improve your model. So the plan is throwing a cowboy scheme (a "variable leverage quantitative long-short fund"?) at the market today, seeing if your hunch can start hard out the gates, and getting someone else to back-test it and optimize the parameters for you later. My own personal core competency would be in creating a general design for the process, and being able to formally document it as a legitimate investment model, complete with executive summaries, investor presentations, and all that stuff.

I'm just brainstorming here, by the way. All of this is probably months away. In the meantime, I should probably learn how to get better with my data sourcing, and one little project would be learning how to construct Graham screeners in Excel using public financial data. I wonder how many people have actually done these Graham screeners. Here are a couple of examples:

Forbes (5/11/17): " If Benjamin Graham Were Alive, What Value Stocks Would He Find?" by John Navin

2100 stocks --> (1yr-trailing P/E < 15) --> 251 stocks
251 --> (P < B) --> 58
58 --> (most recent E > E-from-5-years-ago) --> 31
31 --> (long-term D < X% of E) --> 8
8 --> (div > 0) --> 2

Cabot Wealth Network (8/31/17): " Benjamin Graham’s Seven Criteria for Picking Value Stocks"

And these are a couple of YouTube videos on how to create one using Yahoo data:

TimevalueVideos (YouTube, 10/30/14): " Automatically Download Stock Price data from Yahoo Finance"
TimevalueVideos (YouTube, 8/10/16): " Automatically Download Stock Metrics data from Yahoo Finance"
Posted by LSUtoOmaha
Nashville
Member since Apr 2004
26602 posts
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:18 am to
Nice. I'll be the GM
Posted by LSUtoOmaha
Nashville
Member since Apr 2004
26602 posts
Posted on 9/25/17 at 10:30 am to
I did my own stock screener, starting with Benjamin Graham metrics and then adding some other items.

My criteria are as follows:

Price/Book between 0 and 1
P/E between 0 and 15
Debt/Total Capital between 0 and 0.45
Positive 5 year revenue growth
Positive Return on Equity
Price/Cash Flow between 0 and 50
Share Price over $3
Average Daily Volume over 100k shares
Available on US exchanges

This way, we obtain:

Enough volume to be traded
Positive Cash flow
A Company that makes money
A company not valued at an outrageous price multiple
A company that can afford its debt
A company worth its capitalization on paper

Here are the results:

Atwood Oceanics
Apollo Commercial
Prudential Finacial
Big 5 Sporting Goods
Hibbett Sports
Axis Capital
Maiden Holdings
Vitamin Shoppe
Genesco
Nuveen
American Equity
PennyMac
Korea Electric
SORL Auto Parts
Fidelity National Bank
OFG Bancorp
Net 1UEPS Tech
Argo Group
Wells Fargo
Reaves Utility
Solar Capital

A lot of this is junk of course but two that catch my eye are Wells Fargo and Korea Electric
Posted by bovine1
Walnut Ridge,AR via Tallulah,LA
Member since Dec 2004
1306 posts
Posted on 9/25/17 at 4:42 pm to
I've been adding to my agri positions- MOS, CF, POT. They've had a nice rally here lately tho. Agri is in the tank.
Posted by LSUtoOmaha
Nashville
Member since Apr 2004
26602 posts
Posted on 9/25/17 at 5:59 pm to
What happened to the sector, political stuff?
Posted by bovine1
Walnut Ridge,AR via Tallulah,LA
Member since Dec 2004
1306 posts
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:17 pm to
Prices are in the tank is the main reason. The last farm bill cut subsidies markedly for most. We've had quite a few sellouts in this area. I work for a major rice miller. Mexico was our largest export customer. They have quit us pretty much because of the political rhetoric. They started buying rice from Vietnam which they haven't done in years. The anti NAFTA talk doesn't help farmers either.
Posted by Decisions
Member since Mar 2015
1514 posts
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:25 pm to
NAFTA has been great for ag. I can't speak for anything else, but ag greatly benefited from Mexican trade. It's not just rice, either. Loads of Texan cotton goes straight to Mexico. A good bit of grain as well.

I don't look for any sort of major ag commodity recovery in the near future, but hopefully I'm wrong. I doubt any help is soon coming from D.C.
Posted by Jester
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2006
34650 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 10:39 am to
quote:

Everything but Bitcoin. Bitcoin will rise as the dollar continues its impending fall. It's the red pill.



I mean, that's cool if you ignore it's fake nature and the fact that there is someone strongly manipulating the price of it.
Posted by TigerTatorTots
The Safeshore
Member since Jul 2009
81093 posts
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:16 am to
What is fake about it?
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