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It has to be the defensive scheme right?
Posted on 9/18/17 at 8:06 am
Posted on 9/18/17 at 8:06 am
I just cannot understand how these professional players continue to be so confused and out of place. They cannot be that bad. It is just being so out schemed its hard to watch.
If there is any hope they need to fire Dennis Allen and promote Mike Nolan.
If there is any hope they need to fire Dennis Allen and promote Mike Nolan.
Posted on 9/18/17 at 8:16 am to maxxrajun70
How many defensive coordinators do we have to run through for you people to realize that we are just completely devoid of talent on that side of the ball?
Gregg Williams - Steve Spagnuolo - Rob Ryan - Dennis Allen
The results have been the same every year.
However, I will admit that because our personnel is so bad Allen seems to coach scared. Example, playing a 10-15 yard cushion on a RB/FB split out wide on 1st&10. It's like he's conceding 5 yards on 1st down and just hoping to get to 3rd down. Problem is teams know exactly where to attack us on 3rd downs and without a pass rush, it becomes way too easy to convert on this team.
Gregg Williams - Steve Spagnuolo - Rob Ryan - Dennis Allen
The results have been the same every year.
However, I will admit that because our personnel is so bad Allen seems to coach scared. Example, playing a 10-15 yard cushion on a RB/FB split out wide on 1st&10. It's like he's conceding 5 yards on 1st down and just hoping to get to 3rd down. Problem is teams know exactly where to attack us on 3rd downs and without a pass rush, it becomes way too easy to convert on this team.
This post was edited on 9/18/17 at 8:22 am
Posted on 9/18/17 at 8:19 am to oreeg
quote:
Gregg William - Steve Spagnuolo - Rob Ryan - Dennis Allen
One of these is not like the others
Posted on 9/18/17 at 8:22 am to oreeg
quote:
How many defensive coordinators do we have to run through for you people to realize that we are just completely devoid of talent on that side of the ball?
It's easy to say this, but there is some evidence to support this is not right.
Several of our defensive players have left and been decent elsewhere. Recent examples: Malcolm Jenkins, Akiem Hicks, Patrick Robinson.
Somehow, unbelievably, this team has replicated or surpassed the "worst defense of all times" several times despite changing the players up. We have 7 new starters on defense this year. Are you telling me that somehow the Saints have found the worst group of defenders of all time more than once in the same 5 year span? I just don't buy it.
To me this is similar to the Les Miles offensive conundrum. LSU's offense looked the same despite a ton of different coordinators. Why? Because Les Miles was meddling in the offense.
Posted on 9/18/17 at 8:25 am to Rand AlThor
Well with us drafting poorly and botching FA, we are more reliant on unproven, young players year in and year out.
Last year, we had a couple injuries in the secondary and were forced to start a UDRFA and a guy signed off the street.
Last year, we had a couple injuries in the secondary and were forced to start a UDRFA and a guy signed off the street.
Posted on 9/18/17 at 8:28 am to 50_Tiger
I will give Gregg Williams a bit of credit because he knew his team was outmatched and went all out over-aggressive. It worked out sometimes (2009) but eventually led to his demise in (2010 & 2011).
Posted on 9/18/17 at 9:18 am to maxxrajun70
I don't buy that talent is the problem.
I think in recent years, it was due to both scheme and poor coaching up.
I'm not sure if the coaching up has improved, but the schemes are just as bad.
I think in recent years, it was due to both scheme and poor coaching up.
I'm not sure if the coaching up has improved, but the schemes are just as bad.
Posted on 9/18/17 at 9:25 am to Hoodoo Man
Three different DC. and three different schemes, with revolving doors. What remains the constant?
Posted on 9/18/17 at 9:26 am to maxxrajun70
yall wanted them to play more man
Posted on 9/18/17 at 9:33 am to oreeg
quote:
I will give Gregg Williams a bit of credit because he knew his team was outmatched and went all out over-aggressive. It worked out sometimes (2009) but eventually led to his demise in (2010 & 2011).
If Marcus Williams continues to look like he can be an impact turnover-creator then I think this might work for us again honestly
Posted on 9/18/17 at 9:34 am to maxxrajun70
Definitely scheme as you can see the SAME EXACT issues from when Allen arrived in 2015 to right now, despite having different players every year.
And people want to blame lack of pass rush, but when you are letting guys run free in big open zones and giving up all the underneath stuff your rush isn't going to have time to get home.
And then the zone blitzes are even worse because they are too telegraphed and again leave even bigger holes in those zones.
And you can try to call Ryan bad but the fact is he turned the "worst defense of all time" around in one year to be the 4th best defense of that year with largely the same players.
Then Payton decides he wants the Seahawks defense the next year and brings in Byrd to be Earl Thomas and tells Ryan what scheme to run.
Then when that failed Payton brought back his buddy Allen to run the secondary, and they somehow got worse from 2014, yet Ryan gets the boot and Allen gets promoted.
Then last year you saw the same issues from 2016 and that you are seeing now.
Allen is the issue, and Payton is too. He should have left Ryan alone and not cut all of our defensive leaders (Smith, Vilma, Harper, and Jenkins) all in one off season. At the least you keep one of those guys for continuity. It's been downhill since that point.
And people want to blame lack of pass rush, but when you are letting guys run free in big open zones and giving up all the underneath stuff your rush isn't going to have time to get home.
And then the zone blitzes are even worse because they are too telegraphed and again leave even bigger holes in those zones.
And you can try to call Ryan bad but the fact is he turned the "worst defense of all time" around in one year to be the 4th best defense of that year with largely the same players.
Then Payton decides he wants the Seahawks defense the next year and brings in Byrd to be Earl Thomas and tells Ryan what scheme to run.
Then when that failed Payton brought back his buddy Allen to run the secondary, and they somehow got worse from 2014, yet Ryan gets the boot and Allen gets promoted.
Then last year you saw the same issues from 2016 and that you are seeing now.
Allen is the issue, and Payton is too. He should have left Ryan alone and not cut all of our defensive leaders (Smith, Vilma, Harper, and Jenkins) all in one off season. At the least you keep one of those guys for continuity. It's been downhill since that point.
Posted on 9/18/17 at 9:37 am to RedPop4
quote:
Three different DC. and three different schemes, with revolving doors. What remains the constant?
Not the players. And now not the assistant coaches. So if you want to throw Allen out (you shouldn't because it's largely his fault) that leaves Payton.
Posted on 9/18/17 at 9:40 am to maxxrajun70
We have 3 Rookies starting this year, one of our best DLineman is done for the year with a bad heart, and we have two guys that were backups being used as starters, any D.C. Would struggle.
Having said that, I still believe Allen is a hack
Having said that, I still believe Allen is a hack
Posted on 9/18/17 at 9:55 am to oreeg
quote:
Gregg Williams - Steve Spagnuolo - Rob Ryan - Dennis Allen
The results have been the same every year.
No. No they are not
One of them won us a championship
Posted on 9/18/17 at 10:09 am to maxxrajun70
We have changed so many players that it's not them. It's the coaching and hiring bad coordinators who cannot use our players the right way.
We get different players each year, and the same results continue to happen.
We get different players each year, and the same results continue to happen.
Posted on 9/18/17 at 10:12 am to oreeg
quote:
we are just completely devoid of talent on that side of the ball?
I think this is false. We constantly draft D very high, bring in FAs, etc, have guys that go elsewhere and do well.
As others have said, it has to be 100% cultural.
Posted on 9/18/17 at 10:18 am to RedPop4
I think we have done a terrible job at drafting talent. We were running a 4-3 scheme, and then switched to a 3-4 with 4-3 talent.
Started drafting 3-4 talent, only to switch back to a 4-3.
Draft man corners only to play them in zone or zone corners and play them in man....
Acquire nickel DB's and try to have them as our starting CB.....
We are just in a stupid holding pattern right now, and can't land!
Started drafting 3-4 talent, only to switch back to a 4-3.
Draft man corners only to play them in zone or zone corners and play them in man....
Acquire nickel DB's and try to have them as our starting CB.....
We are just in a stupid holding pattern right now, and can't land!
Posted on 9/18/17 at 10:18 am to Rand AlThor
that's a good summation Thor.
I posted similar in another thread. I don't doubt Vaccaro could follow in the steps of Jenkins and Hicks.
Can you pick that many bad DCs over 11 years? GreGG and Spagnulo are continuing successful DC gigs elsewhere. I never understood what made Allen such a hot up and comer. I don't see the results anywhere. That said, at this point I gotta put it on Payton. There is something wrong systemically for that much prolonged failure when you are plowing as much draft capital and free agent dollars as they have into defense.
I posted similar in another thread. I don't doubt Vaccaro could follow in the steps of Jenkins and Hicks.
Can you pick that many bad DCs over 11 years? GreGG and Spagnulo are continuing successful DC gigs elsewhere. I never understood what made Allen such a hot up and comer. I don't see the results anywhere. That said, at this point I gotta put it on Payton. There is something wrong systemically for that much prolonged failure when you are plowing as much draft capital and free agent dollars as they have into defense.
Posted on 9/18/17 at 10:24 am to LSUZombie
Look ar Vaccaro as prime example of a player being misused.
When Ryan got him in 2013 he used him perfectly. Then when Payton mandated the Seahawks defense to Ryan in 2014 he was used as a deep safety until Payton relented and let Ryan run what he wanted towards the end of the year.
Then Allen comes in and while he changes his usage, he often puts him in a deep safety spot, which again is clearly not how he should be used.
It's like Spagnola all over again, trying to force players to his scheme instead of vice versa. And clearly it will continue to fail as long as Allen is here.
When Ryan got him in 2013 he used him perfectly. Then when Payton mandated the Seahawks defense to Ryan in 2014 he was used as a deep safety until Payton relented and let Ryan run what he wanted towards the end of the year.
Then Allen comes in and while he changes his usage, he often puts him in a deep safety spot, which again is clearly not how he should be used.
It's like Spagnola all over again, trying to force players to his scheme instead of vice versa. And clearly it will continue to fail as long as Allen is here.
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