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re: When did the German soldiers of WWII realize they were the 'bad guys'?
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:43 pm to SadSouthernBuck
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:43 pm to SadSouthernBuck
Do you think I'm not aware of the Einsatzgruppen? That organized massacres took place doesn't change the fact that typical German soldiers were not privy to such policies or that the extermination camps were not deliberately kept secret.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:45 pm to Collegedropout
quote:
perhaps when they were using the masturbation machines on people.
What the crap is that? I went to google it and that was a very bad idea. What is that?
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:50 pm to Undertow
As people have mentioned a generation grew up with the Nazis rebuilding after WWI. These were the diehard fodder outside the core members. The old warhorses went along with the German profession because they were professionals but they had no love of the Nazis party or Hitler. Paulus infamously refused to die for the little colonel at Stalingrad and sent out an underling to negotiate surrender of the army and his capture.
One sub captain at least was relieved of command by his crew for taking down Hitler's portrait while saying there will be no idolatry here.
As for Britain, had Hitler not ordered bombing away from the RAF bases it would have knocked out the will. Instead attacking the cities gave the RAF breathing room and Churchill enough propaganda to stay in the saddle.
Berlin you had the Nazi youth, old men seeing annihilation, what remained of the military that hadn't moved west to surrender to UK and US, and the Charlemagne division. None of the fodder would admit they were bad, hell our own sub command stood up for Donitz at the trials.
Bless Zhukov for sending his boys to die instead of ours.
One sub captain at least was relieved of command by his crew for taking down Hitler's portrait while saying there will be no idolatry here.
As for Britain, had Hitler not ordered bombing away from the RAF bases it would have knocked out the will. Instead attacking the cities gave the RAF breathing room and Churchill enough propaganda to stay in the saddle.
Berlin you had the Nazi youth, old men seeing annihilation, what remained of the military that hadn't moved west to surrender to UK and US, and the Charlemagne division. None of the fodder would admit they were bad, hell our own sub command stood up for Donitz at the trials.
Bless Zhukov for sending his boys to die instead of ours.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:52 pm to arktiger28
From the moment Germany invaded Poland they were killing civilians, Poles & Jews for the most part, and that was done not just by the SS but average German soldiers as well. All of the mass killings in the East, well before the camps were set up, were done by both the SS & German army troops. There are documents that were used in the war crimes trials that proved this. The camps came later; there was mass murder by the SS & the Army well before then. Some of the worst atrocities in Poland early on were committed by Army troops, against the Poles & Jews. They knew.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:53 pm to Undertow
When they put on a uniform that had a skull and crossbones on it
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:54 pm to WiredBobcat
quote:
At some point during the war, the average soldier probably heard rumors or knew about the mass killing of Jews in their concentration camps.
Yeah, and when they heard that they probably thought "Hell yeah!" They were fricking Nazis dude they hated jews what do you think they thought? WW2 was nothing but nonstop death and depravity you think they gave a flying shite about the concentration camps?
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:54 pm to Ash Williams
quote:
but I probably shouldnt be responding rationally to a LucasP post
Yeah, he had to have known that
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:55 pm to Keltic Tiger
There's a certain level of German sympathy on this board if you haven't noticed.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:55 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
That organized massacres took place doesn't change the fact that typical German soldiers were not privy to such policies or that the extermination camps were not deliberately kept secret.
Regular Wehrmacht units were frequently attached to the Einsatzgruppen, either for logistical support or as active participants. If you were an ordinary soldier in Kiev, you certainly knew what was going on at Babi Yar. Was every Wehrmacht soldier an eyewitness? No, of course not. But plenty were.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:56 pm to Undertow
I'd also point out that Hitler wasn't exactly quiet about his beliefs. He tamed it down, sure, but Mein Kampf is ripe with anti-semitic content. If you knew anything about him, you knew he was an evil dude.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:56 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Regular Wehrmacht units were frequently attached to the Einsatzgruppen, either for logistical support or as active participants. If you were an ordinary soldier in Kiev, you certainly knew what was going on at Babi Yar. Was every Wehrmacht soldier an eyewitness? No, of course not. But plenty were.
Yes, some Wehrmacht units were attached and witnessed massacres. The vast majority were not.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 3:57 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
One of the first things the Nazis did was remake the education system. The adult population may have been willing to accept what benefits the Nazis initially provided, but you wouldn't find many true believers among them. However, by 1939 there was a generation of teen and twentysomething fanatics willing to fight to the end.
Sounds familiar
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:01 pm to ChewyDante
Whether or not they witnessed massacres, they were aware that Jews were living away from the rest of the population. They were aware that the Ghetto life wasn't Ideal. They were aware that Hitler talked about a Germany free from Jews. They were aware that this guy wanted to take over the world. Where were the jews to go?
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:04 pm to ChewyDante
When you say the "vast majority were not", where are you getting this ? There are books after books by credited historians & documents & documents from the Germans themselves who say otherwise. In the East, perhaps. But early on, in Poland, and then later on, the German Army did their share of mass murder. Catch AMC's series on WWII, there are interview after interview with German Army troops/officers & they all admit, in various forms, that they did their share of mass murder. Of course, they all blamed Hitler for it. There is absolutely no evidence that any German soldier or even SS was punished, let alone killed, for refusing to participate in mass murder. Himmler himself took note of the effect on his SS & made arrangements for those effected to simply be re-assigned.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:04 pm to Collegedropout
quote:
perhaps when they were using the masturbation machines on people.
Wait. What?
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:15 pm to Keltic Tiger
Germans =/= Nazis.
This is like saying all of us 'Muricans are fricking assholes because of the libtards and SJWs.
As far as the OP's question, when you look at films of all the fanfare surrounding Hitler's parades or public addresses after 1936, do you actually see a country full of people gung-ho for him and his ideals? Cuz all I see are a shitload of normal folks SCARED SHITLESS to not APPEAR gung-ho AF.
How many attempts were made on Hitler during the war FROM German soldiers/citizens? How many were foiled before gaining headway- being ratted out by the same SCARED SHITLESS citizens hoping to gain favor with a madman?
Germany, as a country, was under no illusion for very long...by the time they realized just what they were dealing with, of course it was too late.
This is like saying all of us 'Muricans are fricking assholes because of the libtards and SJWs.
As far as the OP's question, when you look at films of all the fanfare surrounding Hitler's parades or public addresses after 1936, do you actually see a country full of people gung-ho for him and his ideals? Cuz all I see are a shitload of normal folks SCARED SHITLESS to not APPEAR gung-ho AF.
How many attempts were made on Hitler during the war FROM German soldiers/citizens? How many were foiled before gaining headway- being ratted out by the same SCARED SHITLESS citizens hoping to gain favor with a madman?
Germany, as a country, was under no illusion for very long...by the time they realized just what they were dealing with, of course it was too late.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:23 pm to Keltic Tiger
quote:
There are books after books by credited historians & documents & documents from the Germans themselves who say otherwise.
Please provide these books that say the vast majority of Wehrmacht forces were attached to Einsatzgruppen and witnessed massacres.
Again, that regular German forces were at times obliged to aid in Einsatzgruppen activities or to even engage in massacres themselves in not disputed.
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:27 pm to MusclesofBrussels
quote:
MusclesofBrussels
thank you. beat me to it
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:35 pm to Undertow
quote:
I know the average soldier was probably a normal guy just fighting for his country and not necessarily bad but at what point did the rank and file realize that their leaders were evil?
Probably would have never thought they were the bad guys if they kept winning.
"Winners write the history books"
Posted on 7/18/17 at 4:40 pm to SCLSUMuddogs
quote:Kinda like this?
When they put on a uniform that had a skull and crossbones on it
or this
or this?
Here's a tombstone from a graveyard in Pass Christian, MS of a member of the predecessors of the Grim Reapers:
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