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I was a big anti Monty guy
Posted on 1/8/16 at 10:23 pm
Posted on 1/8/16 at 10:23 pm
I was very very wrong
Posted on 1/8/16 at 11:17 pm to Mr.Perfect
Jesus Christ monty Williams and Alvin gentry can both suck people
Posted on 1/8/16 at 11:38 pm to Mr.Perfect
Gentry being an epic failure of a hire does not mean that Monty Williams should have been retained.
For frick's sake people. Get it together.
For frick's sake people. Get it together.
Posted on 1/8/16 at 11:49 pm to JohnnyKilroy
I didn't want Gentry but I am partialy glad we did hire him.
His system is one that amongst other skill sets requires high IQ players, selfless decision making, two way players and the change of system itself required the ability to adapt situationally and long term.
If nothing else this experiment has exposed the players that aren't capable of that and long term you want to minimize those players that fail at a lot of those things on a roster IMO.
His system is one that amongst other skill sets requires high IQ players, selfless decision making, two way players and the change of system itself required the ability to adapt situationally and long term.
If nothing else this experiment has exposed the players that aren't capable of that and long term you want to minimize those players that fail at a lot of those things on a roster IMO.
Posted on 1/9/16 at 9:32 am to NOLA Bronco
Everyone knew Gentry was a risky hire at best. He rode the coattails of the Warriors who have the best starting 5 in the NBA. Walton appears to be someone who can actually be a head coach but is it the talent or the coaching?
Posted on 1/9/16 at 12:32 pm to lsusystem
quote:
talent
Talent. If the Pels had kept Monty or hired JVG or Thibs and gotten off to a slow start with the same injuries while Gentry was putting up big Ws in Oakland, the threads would be about how they blew it by passing on him. No one wins on the internet
This has been a .500 team since an awful start. Monty's team was basically .500 with similar health issues, except for a 2 month stretch to close the year. You can look at Norris Cole hitting 38% from 3 during that stretch and then compare it to what he did over 3 years in Miami next to James, Wade, and Bosh. Was that coaching or just a "hot" streak? Sometimes shite just happens- teams play better than they are, then they play worse.
The problem with Gentry is that they thought they were getting a guy to implement the right system to get more out of their own players. It appears that Monty's system got the most out the talent on board. Unfortunately that peak seems to be sub 50 wins and 6-8 seed; that looks much worse for the guys who assembled the roster and dumped that coach than anyone on the bench.
Monty was never as awful as some thought. Gentry is not as awful as some think. To me, they're quite similar- terrible rotation/lineup management mixed in with some nice ATOs (they had two nice plays in the last minute or so to get 3s for Anderson and Holiday last night that just didn't go down). Neither guy is elevating a team the way a Carlisle or Pop can- which is an unfair standard. They are just "average" coaches.
The nice thing is that Davis can thrive in any environment-in this system, Davis needs a smart PG where they could get by with what they have under Monty. That the braintrust, and Gentry too, miscalculated on how easily they could get Evans/Holiday/etc to become that type of PG is fairly damning though.
Posted on 1/9/16 at 1:42 pm to corndeaux
quote:
The nice thing is that Davis can thrive in any environment-in this system, Davis needs a smart PG where they could get by with what they have under Monty. That the braintrust, and Gentry too, miscalculated on how easily they could get Evans/Holiday/etc to become that type of PG is fairly damning though.
Holiday can absolutely be the PG we need. He is having his best year ever in terms of per 36 numbers. He's a high iq player who defends better than almost any other PG in the league.
His problem is not talent. His problem is a lingering injury that stems from mismanagement by himself and the Pelicans organization. IF he can remain at an league average level of health for a starting PG, there's no question that he is more than capable of being a contender level starter.
Reke, Gordon? Sure they could be valuable players on a contender, but only if they were 1st or 2nd guy off the bench making about half as much as they do currently. They aren't starters on a contender. They can provide spark and scoring in bunches. They are not guys who can consistently lead a high seed playoff team. 20-25 minutes a game max for either of them on a contender.
Ryno could also fall into this category, but only on the right team for the right price. A team that can afford to pay him what he will get this coming summer will not be a contender. Think like a charlotte team who paid big bucks for Batum. A fringe outsider team that can afford to overpay a player that will bring them from just outside the playoffs to just inside and not much more.
Asik is a great backup C who can give you great defense and solid rebounding for 10-15 mins a night. Not much else. Not starting caliber.
Cole is a guy you want that can bail you out of a small handful of games by being the hot hand off the bench when everyone else is sucking. He is never going to be good enough to get the minutes he gets here on a good team, let alone a championship contender. 10-12 minutes a game max on a contender, with a significant amount of DNPs thrown in.
Jury is out on Pondexter imo. He played WAY above his career averages after we acquired him last year. Much more likely that he regresses to his mean than keeps that up.
Gee and Cunningham are 15-20 combined minutes a night guys for a good team.
TL;DR: Of the 240 available minutes per game, the pels are giving over 60% of the minutes to guys who would make up about 20-30% of the minutes on a top 3 seed type of team. Coaching may be an issue, but this season has taught me more than any of the previous ones that we just don't have the correct pieces. We need to add an SF, and an upgrade at SG, backup PG, C, and back up PF.
This post was edited on 1/9/16 at 1:44 pm
Posted on 1/9/16 at 1:57 pm to JohnnyKilroy
Great post and sums up a lot of my own thoughts.
I do think if we had brought in JVG or Thibs this talent could of probably maxed out a little higher then Monty.
We do have some keepers. Or at least a guy in Jrue that is seemingly one as of now. He is an elite defender and so far, as the restrictions have minimized, he is becoming Davis's best partner.
I do think if we had brought in JVG or Thibs this talent could of probably maxed out a little higher then Monty.
We do have some keepers. Or at least a guy in Jrue that is seemingly one as of now. He is an elite defender and so far, as the restrictions have minimized, he is becoming Davis's best partner.
Posted on 1/9/16 at 6:22 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
Holiday can absolutely be the PG we need.
I like Holiday. He's a good player. He's been playing quite well as an off the bench, attacking combo guard. He's taking more 3s and getting to the line more often. Defense is still very good on ball. They should keep him because he can play.
Yet, I just don't see him as the type of PG this system is looking for. His decision making and court vision/awareness are less than what I think is required for a lead ball handler in this type of offense. Maybe the staff can keep working with him and improve some of these things, but after 13K minutes as an NBA guard you likely are who you are.
Posted on 1/9/16 at 6:28 pm to ShamelessPel
Monty was frustrating to watch at times but the product was still fun to watch. Gentry has somehow made this team fricking unwatchable.
Also...i hate his face
Also...i hate his face
Posted on 1/10/16 at 12:21 am to corndeaux
quote:
I like Holiday. He's a good player. He's been playing quite well as an off the bench, attacking combo guard. He's taking more 3s and getting to the line more often. Defense is still very good on ball. They should keep him because he can play.
Yet, I just don't see him as the type of PG this system is looking for. His decision making and court vision/awareness are less than what I think is required for a lead ball handler in this type of offense. Maybe the staff can keep working with him and improve some of these things, but after 13K minutes as an NBA guard you likely are who you are.
I don't have access to synergy so I can't verify it, but as of last year, before his injury, Holiday supposedly had become our best pick and roll player with Davis.
We have gotten away from the pick and roll with Davis more then we should but Jrue has shown he is very versatile. Playing off ball as a SG here and in Philly, being an attacker on offense either starting or off the bench or playing the facilitator role. I still want to see what he could do with the reigns to play as our primary facilitator and ball handler with the starters instead off the bench.
Posted on 1/10/16 at 8:20 am to NOLA Bronco
Yeah. I see the numbers and then I watch him play and it doesn't compute for me.
Edit: I don't watch him and think "This is one of the best PnR guys in the league"
Probably a bit of confirmation bias on my end, but it feels like he misses guys, pounds the ball, and takes quick pull up Js (the Norris Cole Special) too often. His instincts seem to be scoring guard first; and there's nothing wrong with that. Hes been quite good the past two years.
I don't think he's awful and I don't think they should dump him. I just don't know if I would hitch my wagon to him as primary creator in this system. Regardless of his injury situation, I would want another pg (more of a table setter) on board. But I could be way off.
Yeah. This has been disappointing from Gentry. Davis is arguably the best roll option in the league. I thought we'd see more Amare type sets for Davis, but that just hasn't happened.
Edit: I don't watch him and think "This is one of the best PnR guys in the league"
Probably a bit of confirmation bias on my end, but it feels like he misses guys, pounds the ball, and takes quick pull up Js (the Norris Cole Special) too often. His instincts seem to be scoring guard first; and there's nothing wrong with that. Hes been quite good the past two years.
I don't think he's awful and I don't think they should dump him. I just don't know if I would hitch my wagon to him as primary creator in this system. Regardless of his injury situation, I would want another pg (more of a table setter) on board. But I could be way off.
quote:
We have gotten away from the pick and roll with Davis more then we should
Yeah. This has been disappointing from Gentry. Davis is arguably the best roll option in the league. I thought we'd see more Amare type sets for Davis, but that just hasn't happened.
This post was edited on 1/10/16 at 8:32 am
Posted on 1/10/16 at 11:58 am to Mr.Perfect
Monty deserved another year. I'm still baffled at how so many people on this board thought Gentry was a good hire.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 8:15 am to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
We need to add an SF, and an upgrade at SG, backup PG, C, and back up PF.
So pretty much, AD is our only good player. Not really disagreeing.
I thought Monty was a good coach considering what we had and what he got out of the players. I think he deserved another year. I wasn't dead set against us getting rid of him, but i wanted a better coach. When we hired Gentry, I knew we failed.
I want a high draft pick this year and trade a future pick for Brad Stevens. #rideforbrad
Posted on 1/11/16 at 8:35 am to Suntiger
Boston ain't letting Stevens go for a "future pick" . No Pels asset outside of Davis could fetch you a coach Stevens.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 8:50 am to Ancient Astronaut
quote:
I'm still baffled at how so many people on this board thought Gentry was a good hire.
I'm still baffled that people think "many" people here thought Gentry was a good hire. Most of us didn't like it but once it happened tried to find ways to sell ourselves on it because there's nothing that could be done. There was 1 board regular and 1 or 2 occasional posters that seemed genuinely happy with the move at the time.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 9:43 am to TigerinATL
I didn't want Gentry going into the search process, but I supported the hire once it was made. I was convinced (wrongly so, obviously) that Gentry would at a minimum make us one of the most explosive and fun teams in the league in addition to adding 5+ regular season wins per year.
Unfortunately neither of those things have come close to happening.
Unfortunately neither of those things have come close to happening.
Posted on 1/11/16 at 10:23 am to TigerinATL
I don't know if you're referring to me or not as genuinely happy. But I'll say this:
I never saw myself as Gentry or bust, but rather more vocal in defending him from what I felt were off base complaints. I would have been happy with JVG and said as much at the time.
The organization wanted up tempo pace/space and Gentry was the best available option we knew of. When they hired Gentry, I felt the team had a feel for the roster. That they got the guy they wanted and that they were ready to shift. Like JohhnyKilroy and many others, I thought we would see a fun, explosive team.
Clearly that has been wrong and all parties (players, coaches, FO) deserve blame. Injuries haven't helped, but it just hasn't clicked yet.
I never saw myself as Gentry or bust, but rather more vocal in defending him from what I felt were off base complaints. I would have been happy with JVG and said as much at the time.
The organization wanted up tempo pace/space and Gentry was the best available option we knew of. When they hired Gentry, I felt the team had a feel for the roster. That they got the guy they wanted and that they were ready to shift. Like JohhnyKilroy and many others, I thought we would see a fun, explosive team.
Clearly that has been wrong and all parties (players, coaches, FO) deserve blame. Injuries haven't helped, but it just hasn't clicked yet.
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