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Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:43 pm to Powerman
quote:
But I do think that financial institutions are probably part of the problem as well. The practice of extending credit to people that aren't really credit worthy creates a cycle of "survival" style cost of living with the constant high interest debt payments that need to be made just to keep current. Let's face it, most college students don't know how to manage money well.
This.
As a stupid society, we spend too much damn money on stupid shite. I only partially blame the financial institutions.
Every person I know that claims to be broke and not able to make enough money still has a decent house, new car, and all of the toys that everyone thinks of as a right these days. And most of all, they eat out or pick up food and rarely cook.
Stupid lazy fooks!
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:43 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
That said, it's still ridiculously easy to become a middle class citizen and move into the upper-middle class in this country.
Agree. I've tried to frick it up several times and still found myself meandering back toward that direction.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:44 pm to Powerman
quote:
I don't know for sure but I'm gonna guess they don't lines of credit from banks.
quote:
Well the banks have a lot of political clout but they're certainly not the government.
Why are you two using banks to refute my position? I know YOU posited a bank component. MY contention rejects that as a reason for the situation.
No, not ENTIRELY. Just, not the primary cause
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:46 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
I'm not refuting your position.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:47 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
I'm not refuting your position.
Well, DAMN!!
Way to make it plain that I'm an illiterate a-hole!
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:49 pm to deltaland
The 2008 subprime collapse was the fault of Congress, The regulators, The banks, hundreds of smaller lenders, thousands of greedy individual loan officers, thousands of lax underwriters, thousands of crooked property appraisers, and consumers who were greedy or clueless and 1000 other things.
The only constant was the GREED across every level, and the willingness at EVERY SINGLE LEVEL to look the other way. It was a nation-wide failure across all classes, from the top down.
The blame can not be confined solely to government or solely to idiot consumers living above their means.
The only constant was the GREED across every level, and the willingness at EVERY SINGLE LEVEL to look the other way. It was a nation-wide failure across all classes, from the top down.
The blame can not be confined solely to government or solely to idiot consumers living above their means.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:49 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
Sorry. I <3 you BHP. No homo. I promise. I don't even watch Disney.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:51 pm to notiger1997
quote:
Every person I know that claims to be broke and not able to make enough money still has a decent house, new car, and all of the toys that everyone thinks of as a right these days. And most of all, they eat out or pick up food and rarely cook.
Stupid lazy fooks!
Well to be fair you probably don't know any really poor people. Just people who live check to check. There are poor people out there.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:53 pm to Lsupimp
quote:
The 2008 subprime collapse was the fault of Congress, The regulators, The banks, hundreds of smaller lenders, thousands of greedy individual loan officers, thousands of lax underwriters, thousands of crooked property appraisers, and consumers who were greedy or clueless and 1000 other things.
The only constant was the GREED across every level, and the willingness at EVERY SINGLE LEVEL to look the other way. It was a nation-wide failure across all classes, from the top down.
The blame can not be confined solely to government or solely to idiot consumers living above their means.
We finally agree on something
And if we're going to depend on the idiots among us to determine our fate then we have failed as a society.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:54 pm to Powerman
quote:
Well to be fair you probably don't know any really poor people. Just people who live check to check. There are poor people out there.
Our poor people get free food and housing and cell phones. Poor has a different definition here than it does elsewhere.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:57 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
Is the middle FALLING to the low? Or, is the middle CLIMBING to the high?
Both. Achievers are taking advantage of opportunity while underachievers are settling for less and OK with their decisions.
quote:
But, to answer your question...where one is is the sum total of the decisions one has made (extended to succeeding generations). So, one is to blame for where one is.
I agree with this. Sure anyone can have bad luck and for instance get terminal cancer not related to personal habits but for the most part life is about choices. And I wouldn't necessarily assign "blame" to many situations in which people are reconciled with their choices. A good example might be a young man who chooses to stay in his home town near family and friends knowing that he could take a job in a major city making more money.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:59 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Our poor people get free food and housing and cell phones. Poor has a different definition here than it does elsewhere.
This isn't the case for everyone. Go visit some poor people in rural MS or shite even here in Ingleside, TX. There are some really poor MFers out there. I know everyone likes to pretend that every one of them has a GS4 and a 2011 5 series but it just isn't true.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 5:59 pm to davesdawgs
quote:
Both. Achievers are taking advantage of opportunity while underachievers are settling for less and OK with their decisions.
Sometimes I wish I could think of the real world in such simple ways.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 6:00 pm to Powerman
it's tough to get people to agree on a definition where the bottom of the middle class is.
another complicating thing is that what the underclass has in income is smaller than what they get to consume, thanks to the safety net. in many ways what the lower class consumes is fairly similar to what the lower-middle class consumes. this is why, to me, the "middle class" looks huge.
the class that is visible below this includes the homeless or other true dysfunctionals that you sometimes see begging. but that's not a great number of people in reality. HUD says the number of homeless is like 600 thousand- a fraction of 1% of the US population. i know there are more "poor" than that, but i don't believe that the middle class is anything but huge, nor do i believe it is shrinking in any meaningful way, nor do i believe that the standard of living of those within it is declining
eta: forgot the main point, that i do actually think we're closer to two-tier, but from a different point of view than the op suggests
another complicating thing is that what the underclass has in income is smaller than what they get to consume, thanks to the safety net. in many ways what the lower class consumes is fairly similar to what the lower-middle class consumes. this is why, to me, the "middle class" looks huge.
the class that is visible below this includes the homeless or other true dysfunctionals that you sometimes see begging. but that's not a great number of people in reality. HUD says the number of homeless is like 600 thousand- a fraction of 1% of the US population. i know there are more "poor" than that, but i don't believe that the middle class is anything but huge, nor do i believe it is shrinking in any meaningful way, nor do i believe that the standard of living of those within it is declining
eta: forgot the main point, that i do actually think we're closer to two-tier, but from a different point of view than the op suggests
This post was edited on 1/29/14 at 6:02 pm
Posted on 1/29/14 at 6:01 pm to Powerman
quote:
I know everyone likes to pretend that every one of them has a GS4 and a 2011 5 series but it just isn't true.
I'm not saying they're living high on the hog, but you really have to try to not have the basic necessities in life and even some real amenities.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 6:23 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
What we define as 'poor' now is so ludicrous.
Poor people used to starve, now they eat so much they are obese.
Virtually every American has a TV in their home (and on average there are more TV's in homes than people).
in 1959 the average worker would have to work over 120 hours to buy a washer and dryer. Today it is 20.
Point being, we keep moving the yardsticks and lose perspective. We insult the historical poor by comparing them to the a large portion of what we consider modern day 'poor'.
Poor people used to starve, now they eat so much they are obese.
Virtually every American has a TV in their home (and on average there are more TV's in homes than people).
in 1959 the average worker would have to work over 120 hours to buy a washer and dryer. Today it is 20.
Point being, we keep moving the yardsticks and lose perspective. We insult the historical poor by comparing them to the a large portion of what we consider modern day 'poor'.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 6:25 pm to Powerman
You have to be cautious with the credit argument. If you look at other developing countries, it is widely accepted the lack of credit available to the lower classes is a barrier to them having any upward mobility.
When you see them building a house brick by brick and then waiting a month to buy the next brick... you see credit is vital. Can it be abused and overextended? Sure.
When you see them building a house brick by brick and then waiting a month to buy the next brick... you see credit is vital. Can it be abused and overextended? Sure.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 6:31 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
Or, is the middle CLIMBING to the high?
That's what I see 90% of the time someone I know or know of changes "classes." The ones I know of who dropped, did so because they took a business risk and lost. In the end though, they'll probably still end up ahead of most as they keep pushing.
Posted on 1/29/14 at 6:34 pm to Powerman
Corporate America. There is no incentive to maintain a middle class in this country when you sell to a global market and employ overseas.
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