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The Labor Theory of Value

Posted on 12/4/25 at 9:45 am
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
58838 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 9:45 am
I’ve been reading Iris Marion Young’s Five Faces of Oppression (Exploitation, Marginalization, Powerlessness, Cultural Imperialism, Violence). In her section on exploitation, she makes this claim:

“Every commodity's value is a function of the labor time necessary for its production.”

I get why she says this, but it also doesn't make sense in modern times. From any contemporary mainstream economics perspective, value comes from utility and scarcity. Basically, how badly people want a thing and how hard it is to get.

Young is working from the Labor Theory of Value (LTV). That’s the classical economics tradition of Adam Smith and David Ricardo, and of course our friend, Karl Marx. Our dominant framework today is the Subjective/Marginalist Theory of Value, where value emerges from supply, demand, and scarcity.

I can see why Young leans on LTV. It gives her a structural, objective way to define exploitation as surplus value transfer, not just “unequal exchange” or bad deals. If she wants to define exploitation as an economic form of oppression, she needs a theory that makes exploitation measurable and built into the system.

But the problem for me is that the LTV completely ignores scarcity and subjective utility. That makes it impossible to take as a comprehensive theory of value in 2025. It seems like a product of its era, not something that maps cleanly onto how markets actually work now.

For example, take Adam Smith. In Wealth of Nations, he writes:

"The real price of every thing, what every thing really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it… Labour was the first price, the original purchase money that was paid for all things."

Smith isn’t talking about market price at all. He’s grounding value in labor commanded or saved. It’s all about production cost, not about how much consumers desire something. It's interesting that Smith is considered the Father of Capitalism when he held ideas like that.

And that’s the conceptual wall I keep hitting. I can understand LTV on its own terms. But trying to reconcile it with our current understanding of markets, incentives, and price formation feels almost impossible. Maybe I’m just too entrenched in subjective value theory to “see” the LTV the way Young needs us to.

So, for the economists and theory-minded folks here:
How do you make sense of LTV today? Is there a way to bridge the gap between a structural, production-based concept of value and the marginalist, preference-driven one we use now? Or is LTV simply philosophically useful and economically obsolete?

Curious what y’all think.
Posted by lsuguy84
Madisonville
Member since Feb 2009
26256 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 9:46 am to
quote:

Curious what y’all think


Posted by texag7
College Station
Member since Apr 2014
40546 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 9:51 am to
You’re a lazy liberal woman who needs to hire a maid because you’re too lazy to do any manual labor and think you’re above doing certain tasks. People like you are the reason our immigration system is fricked.

I hope your maid gets deported and you’re forced to pick up after yourself. Would be a better use of your time than pretending to be smart on the internet.
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
58838 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 9:55 am to
Are you that jealous that I pay someone $40/hour to clean my house? Who cares how strangers spend their time or money?

I'm dictating this post to another illegal who is transcribing it for me btw.
This post was edited on 12/4/25 at 9:58 am
Posted by TexasForever81
Member since Mar 2023
610 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 9:56 am to
quote:

pay someone $40 to clean my house


Slave wages to an illegal. You should be ashamed.
Posted by UptownJoeBrown
Baton Rouge
Member since Jul 2024
7005 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:02 am to
Because of your fricked up liberal views, no one is going to listen to you. That’s why I stereotype. Saves me time.
Posted by thetempleowl
dallas, tx
Member since Jul 2008
15908 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:05 am to
Labor theory of value? Does this mean the time spent laboring is what creates its value?

That is stupid. The value of the labor is how many people can do it. If everyone can do it, the value of that labor is low.

If you can do something that maybe 15 people in the world can do, and that product is worth billions, like a great nfl quarterback, your labor is worth a mint.

Labor has little to no intrinsic value. If I spend hours tinkering in a workshop trying to discover a better widget, and fail, I wasted my time and labor.

So I unbeaten this person saying that labor itself has value, I'm not sure i agree with that.

And different people's labor is worth vastly different amounts.
Posted by Jbird
In Bidenville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
83951 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:05 am to
quote:

Because of your fricked up liberal views, no one is going to listen to you. That’s why I stereotype. Saves me time.



She will be babbling about imaginary lines before long.
Posted by GetMeOutOfHere
Member since Aug 2018
1017 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:07 am to
ChatGPT, give me some solid references to left wing economic theories and books so I can troll on a Louisiana sports message board.
Posted by TheHarahanian
Actually not Harahan as of 6/2023
Member since May 2017
22963 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:08 am to
Labor cost might set a value floor for a commodity, but not in all cases.

Ex: I own a gold mine in Africa and I pay the equivalent of US $5/day per worker. Chances are the market price for gold (based largely on demand and scarcity) is going to far exceed my production costs.
But if the price of gold drops dramatically, I have a minimum price for it based on my production costs. I’ll halt production and sit on what I have until the price comes back up.

The value floor is out the window if your product is perishable, like crops.

I’ve seen this happen with cryptocurrency mining. People have to pay for the electricity to run the machines that produce cryptocurrency, so they monitor the price of electricity vs the value of the cryptocurrency they’re mining and shut things down if they’re losing money.

Edit:
I’m using “production costs” instead of “labor costs”. Production costs might include facilities, equipment, utilities, taxes, labor, etc. And in the cryptocurrency example there’s no labor.
This post was edited on 12/4/25 at 11:05 am
Posted by JimEverett
Member since May 2020
1916 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:09 am to
I will bite

From what you posted it seems that Young and Smit are saying different things

Young is saying that for any good produced, its value is simply the labor expended to produce it.

Smith is saying that any product is worth what a person is willing to labor for in order to get it.

Both seem useful on some level. Young's approach explains why goods have become so affordable for millions of people as automation has allowed more goods to be made more cheaply (with far less human labor involved). And also account for why, for example, a master craftsman who makes furniture has invested thousands of hours of labor to perfect his craft and thus producing one-of-a-kind pieces that command a high price because of scarcity.

Smith's seems almost axiomatic today: is that product worth x number of hours/days/months etch worth of work for me to purchase it.
Posted by Devious
Elitist
Member since Dec 2010
29389 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:09 am to
Of course, you're reading about oppression
Posted by Jbird
In Bidenville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
83951 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:10 am to
quote:

ChatGPT, give me some solid references to left wing economic theories and books so I can troll on a Louisiana sports message board.

Powermullah will be along shortly to knight for her.
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
58838 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:11 am to
So the labor theory of value would really only be preferable in "famine" times.

I wonder if economists ever reference it anymore in contemporary economics discussions. It seems just totally obsolete now.
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
58838 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:12 am to
it's for school, not pleasure.
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
25036 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:13 am to


Labor Theory of Value is a pillar at the core of Marxism. Nothing more.

Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
58838 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:16 am to
quote:

Young is saying that for any good produced, its value is simply the labor expended to produce it.

Smith is saying that any product is worth what a person is willing to labor for in order to get it.



oooooh. Good insight!

This is the expanded Smith quote from The Wealth of Nations:

"The real price of every thing, what every thing really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it. What every thing is really worth to the man who has acquired it, and who wants to dispose of it or exchange it for something else, is the toil and trouble which it can save to himself, and which it can impose upon other people. What is bought with money, or with goods, is purchased by labour, as much as what we acquire by the toil of our own body. That money, or those goods, indeed, save us this toil. They contain the value of a certain quantity of labour, which we exchange for what is supposed at the time to contain the value of an equal quantity. Labour was the first price, the original purchase money that was paid for all things. It was not by gold or by silver, but by labour, that all the wealth of the world was originally purchased; and its value, to those who possess it, and who want to exchange it for some new productions, is precisely equal to the quantity of labour which it can enable them to purchase or command." [/quote]

The toil and trouble of acquiring it isn't the same as the toil and trouble to produce it.

Young (and likely Marx) seems to have misinterpreted Smith's argument.

Thank you for engaging.
Posted by roadGator
Member since Feb 2009
154505 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:18 am to
quote:

Labor Theory of Value is a pillar at the core of Marxism. Nothing more.


Commie shite is a 4chubbie specialty.
Posted by TerryDawg03
The Deep South
Member since Dec 2012
17668 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:21 am to
quote:

“Every commodity's value is a function of the labor time necessary for its production.”


On the surface, this sounds like it’s potentially conflating cost and value, which are two very different things.

By definition: Cost is a fact. Price is a fact. Value is an opinion.

Your OP requires more context than can probably be provided in a simple post. There’s a lot of background baked into the statement you cite, and without that, the discussion will go in circles.

Based on the title of the book, I’d imagine that the assumptions behind the statement lean in a certain direction.
Posted by 4cubbies
Member since Sep 2008
58838 posts
Posted on 12/4/25 at 10:22 am to
quote:

Labor Theory of Value is a pillar at the core of Marxism


Isn't it interesting that Adam Smith and David Ricardo came up with it?
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