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Data for you to ponder tonight: insurers are not the villain. Providers are

Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:30 pm
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
71357 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:30 pm
quote:

LINK

UnitedHealth Group, the company of which Brian Thompson’s UnitedHealthcare is a subsidiary, is the most valuable private health insurer in the country in terms of market capitalization, and the one with the largest market share. Its net profit margin is just 6.11%:

That’s only about half of the average profit margin of companies in the S&P 500. And other big insurers are even less profitable. Elevance Health, the second-biggest, has a margin of between 2% and 4%. Centene’s margin is usually around 1% to 2%. Cigna Group’s margin is usually around 2% to 3%. And so on. These companies are just making very little profit at all.

Here’s another way of visualizing that:



You can see that the company’s net income — i.e., its total profit — was $23.1 billion in 2023. That’s a lot of money, but it pales in comparison to the $241.9 billion that the company spent on medical costs.2 Even the company’s $54.6 billion in operating costs — of which Brian Thompson’s own $10 million salary represented 0.018% — are dwarfed by actual medical costs.

What does this mean? It means that if UnitedHealth Group decided to donate every single dollar of its profit to buying Americans more health care, it would only be able to pay for about 9.3% more health care than it’s already paying for. If it donated all of its executives’ salaries to the effort, it would not be much more than that.

What about those denials of coverage, copays, deductibles, and so on? In fact, Americans are paying a smaller percentage of their health costs out of pocket than people in most other rich countries!




The actual people charging you an arm and a leg for your care, and putting you at risk of medical bankruptcy, are the providers themselves. The smiling doctor who writes you prescriptions and sends you to the MRI and refers you to a specialist without ever asking you for money knows full well that you’re going to end up having to wrangle with the insurance company for the cost of all those services. The gentle nurse who sets up your IV doesn’t tell you whether each dose of drugs through the IV could set you back hundreds of dollars, but they know. When the polite administrative assistants at the front desk send you back to treatment without telling you that their services are out of your network, it’s because they didn’t bother to check. The executives making millions at “nonprofit” hospitals, and the shareholders making billions on the profits of companies that supply and contract with those hospitals, are people you never see and probably don’t even think about.

Excessive prices charged by health care providers are overwhelmingly the reason why Americans’ health care costs so cripplingly much. But they’ve outsourced the actual collection of those fees to insurance companies, so that your experience in the medical system feels smooth and friendly and comfortable. The insurance companies are simply hired to play the bad guy — and they’re paid a relatively modest fee for that service. So you get to hate UnitedHealthcare and Cigna, while the real people taking away your life’s savings and putting you at risk of bankruptcy get to play Mother Theresa.

This post was edited on 12/11/24 at 7:32 pm
Posted by TJack
BR
Member since Dec 2018
3059 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:34 pm to
I know right? Why would anyone want to be a CEO of a company with that little profit margin.

Posted by csorre1
Member since Apr 2010
6816 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:35 pm to
I don't think you have had a post yet that I agree with, and you post a lot.
Posted by Mingo Was His NameO
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2016
29579 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:35 pm to
Medical care would be so expensive if it wasn’t all billed through insurance and PBM’s. And yes, the CEO “only” got paid $10 million cash, but he was paid 10s of millions in stock and had access to the private jet, etc.

Knighting for insurance companies certainly ain’t the lane I’d pick
Posted by TigerFred
Feeding hamsters
Member since Aug 2003
27656 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:36 pm to
We need health care reform not insurance reform. Although they go hand in hand in battle against lawsuits that drive costs up.

Tylenol cost $500+ each because 27 different people have to approve/verify/deliver/distribute it to the patient because someone is trying to cover their arse.

And don’t forget to add in the Unions.

Posted by OKBoomerSooner
Member since Dec 2019
4063 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:37 pm to
United specifically had abnormally high denial rates and an abnormally large market share and profit margin compared to its competition.

I think the more accurate version of your argument is that healthcare is a complex problem without an obvious singular bad actor or set of bad actors responsible for its current state. Noah’s best point in that article is that insurers are basically paid to be the ‘bad guy’ of the system because they’re the main agent in the system responsible for cost control. So it’s easy to lose the nuance to cost control problems because everyone’s had a bad experience with insurance but not necessarily with providers.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
102210 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:37 pm to
There're a lot of villains. But Big Insurance doesn't get a pass. Those relatively modest margins come from a risk free revenue stream. If Apple introduces a new product and it flops, it affects the bottom line. Those insurance premiums keep coming every month.
Posted by LRB1967
Tennessee
Member since Dec 2020
21122 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:38 pm to
bullshite!
Posted by FAP SAM
Member since Sep 2014
3100 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:38 pm to
Insurance companies charge patients more every year and pay doctors less every year
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
71357 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:40 pm to
quote:


Knighting for insurance companies certainly ain’t the lane I’d pick


The data is screaming at you in the face that American doctors of all specialities, hospitals, etc all get paid way more than in other nations, yet you single out insurance.

My question is: why?

In many cases, specialists in America earn 35-45% more in salary than specialists in Europe. You don’t think that is reflected in your premiums?
Posted by Mingo Was His NameO
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2016
29579 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:43 pm to
quote:

The data is screaming at you in the face that American doctors of all specialities, hospitals, etc all get paid way more than in other nations, yet you single out insurance.


Every post in here spreads the blame across multiple bad actors. You’re the only one who has spent days slurping insurance companies
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
71357 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:44 pm to
quote:


There're a lot of villains. But Big Insurance doesn't get a pass. Those relatively modest margins come from a risk free revenue stream. If Apple introduces a new product and it flops, it affects the bottom line. Those insurance premiums keep coming every month.


American insurance companies could collectivity decide tomorrow to reduce their profit margins to zero and it be a rounding error difference in what you pay in premiums every month.

The data is screaming at you.
Posted by Lsut81
Member since Jun 2005
82774 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:44 pm to
quote:

its total profit — was $23.1 billion in 2023.


You do realize how massive this is, right?


ETA:

Just googled, they are the 41st most profitable company.
Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
20009 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:45 pm to
Both sides are evil.
Posted by pussywillows
Member since Dec 2009
6216 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:46 pm to
quote:

The data is screaming at you in the face that American doctors of all specialities, hospitals, etc all get paid way more than in other nations, yet you single out insurance.



did a doctor frick your wife, or something? you sure seem to have some personal issue with doctors' salaries...
Posted by shoestring
Member since Nov 2012
333 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:50 pm to
Doctors spend a minimum of 12 yrs without earning significant income how much you think they should earn? If you cut the pay in half are you prepared for the 2nd level MDs that will surely fill the schools whenever the top shelf guys pursue other careers.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
71357 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:50 pm to
quote:

You do realize how massive this is, right?


Educate yourself on why, in the world of data, we use profit margin rather than raw profit to draw inferences.

Using your logic, Vermont is way more lenient on taxes than Texas because it brings in lower raw tax Revenue yearly
Posted by BlackCoffeeKid
Member since Mar 2016
12489 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:53 pm to
quote:

In many cases, specialists in America earn 35-45% more in salary than specialists in Europe.

I’m fairly certain American doctors have to go through additional training compared to international counterparts.
Posted by Mingo Was His NameO
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2016
29579 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:53 pm to
quote:

Educate yourself on why, in the world of data, we use profit margin rather than raw profit to draw inferences.


Do you don’t think there isn’t any waste or excess in their operations that could be cut in addition to reforming the health care side of the equation?
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
71357 posts
Posted on 12/11/24 at 7:54 pm to
quote:

Doctors spend a minimum of 12 yrs without earning significant income how much you think they should earn? If you cut the pay in half are you prepared for the 2nd level MDs that will surely fill the schools whenever the top shelf guys pursue other careers.


How do you justify this?

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