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Tariffs I urge caution

Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:16 pm
Posted by OWLFAN86
Erotic Novelist
Member since Jun 2004
194437 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:16 pm
The idea that protective tariffs can restore America’s economic greatness, based on the interpretation that they fueled our growth in the 19th century and can do so again in the 21st century. This claim isn’t just wrong; it’s dangerous.

Take recent comments by the conservative pundit Oren Cass, who said “the way America went from colonial backwater to this globe-spanning industrial colossus was not free markets and free trade. It was aggressive protection of our domestic market.” President Trump echoes similar ideas in his many pronouncements about why, if he’s re-elected, tariffs will be a big and important tool to revitalize America’s economy.

At a superficial level, it’s easy to see how someone could think tariffs promote domestic growth. As the Cato Institute’s Scott Lincicome rightly notes, “the issue a classic case of correlation versus causation: Because tariffs were high during a period of rapid American growth and industrialization, so the argument goes, the former caused the latter.”

Yet correlation isn’t causation. Tariffs weren’t the cause of American prosperity. Not even close.

To begin, economist and trade historian Douglas Irwin points out that “rather than higher tariffs causing higher growth, the relationship could be spurious: land-abundant countries relied on customs duties to raise government revenue and also enjoyed favorable growth prospects, with little link between the two.”

In 19th-century America — about as land-abundant as it got — the sectors that grew the most were services and agriculture, which were not much protected by tariffs.


In addition, at the time, America was the net beneficiary of foreign capital investment, which resulted in the trade deficits that Trump so hates today. This inflow of global capital contributed to a burst of new technology and ideas, all put to the test in a free market.

In other words, despite tariffs on some imported goods, America’s 19th-century economy was extremely open.

While Mr. Irwin finds that the economic distortions caused by high tariff rates were relatively small, economist Brad DeLong reminds us that the harm — especially on exporting farmers and the domestic producers who had to pay higher prices for imported capital goods — outweighed the benefits to tariff-protected industries.
[i]

The noneconomic costs of tariffs were also high. Tariffs fueled corruption and other profit seeking with no real value to society. Contributing to the Cato Institute’s “Defending Globalization” project, Phillip Magness writes that “high tariff protectionism continued to attract rent-seeking interest groups.”

He adds that “The sheer extravagance of the public corruption around tariff schedule revisions came to a head in the late 19th century, eventually leading reformers to call for the abandonment of a tariff-based revenue system.” That’s how we got the highly distortive income tax
.

Also overlooked by those claiming that 19th-century tariffs made America great is that the country’s biggest import at the time was immigrants, who incurred no tariffs.

As economists Cecil Bohanon and T. Norman Van Cott argue in “Tariffs, Immigration, and Economic Insulation,” weighing the impact of tariffs on economic growth without accounting for immigration — which increased to more than 1,000,000 in 1910 from about 200,000 individuals a year in 1865 — can only lead to questionable conclusions.

They explain that “[t]he impact of high tariffs, clearly an insulating policy, was swamped by free immigration, a quintessential policy of economic openness.”

Trump is an avowed restrictionist on both immigration and trade. And so, if a second Trump presidency brings higher tariffs and further immigration restrictions, we won’t be as fortunate as were our 19th century forebears.

Making matters worse is that today’s economy is vastly different from that of a century ago. Globalization has interconnected markets and supply chains in unprecedented ways. Half of what Americans import are inputs they use to produce goods domestically. Tariffs on these imports increase production costs, making American products less competitive both at home and abroad.

Furthermore, the service sector — comprising industries like technology, finance, and health care — now represents nearly four-fifths of the American economy. These sectors thrive on innovation, skilled labor, and access to global markets, rather than on protectionist policies.


Reimagining tariffs as a panacea for economic woes is not only historically inaccurate but economically unsound. The America of the past grew in spite of tariffs, not because of them. If higher tariffs are imposed today, history will not look kindly on those who imposed them.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
295410 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:17 pm to
quote:

The idea that protective tariffs can restore America’s economic greatness, based on the interpretation that they fueled our growth in the 19th century and can do so again in the 21st century. This claim isn’t just wrong; it’s dangerous.


Its refreshing to see someone with actual economic knowledge. They'll hate you here, but youre spot on.

Posted by 50_Tiger
Arlington TX
Member since Jan 2016
42867 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:18 pm to
Most powerful economy in the world.
The most exploited country in the world from Big Corpo.

frick EM

Send the tariffs. You want to make money, do it IN AMERICA.
Posted by BhamTigah
Lurker since Jan 2003
Member since Jan 2007
17333 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:18 pm to
Is there a TLDR version?
Posted by Aubie Spr96
lolwut?
Member since Dec 2009
43899 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:18 pm to
Tariffs are taxes on consumers. Nothing more.
Posted by 50_Tiger
Arlington TX
Member since Jan 2016
42867 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:19 pm to
quote:


Tariffs are taxes on consumers. Nothing more.


What are loss jobs then?
Posted by SportTiger1
Stonewall, LA
Member since Feb 2007
29856 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:20 pm to
I would much rather approach this issue from the standpoint of tax incentives for keeping or growing American jobs instead of adding tariffs to everything coming in.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
295410 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:21 pm to
quote:

The most exploited country in the world from Big Corpo.


Tariffs are a subsidy to big corp off the back of the working class.

Posted by 50_Tiger
Arlington TX
Member since Jan 2016
42867 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:22 pm to
quote:

Tariffs are a subsidy to big corp off the back of the working class.


Difference is the word WORKING in your post. Most of these companies are offshoring jobs, which mean the WORKING class is shrinking.
Posted by OWLFAN86
Erotic Novelist
Member since Jun 2004
194437 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:22 pm to
Well I've had my arguments over the past couple of years and months with some of my opposition to Trump policies it hadn't gotten me anywhere in my mentoring project with politards

But I thought this article did a good way of introducing some historical facts and ideas it's just a good discussion


I will say that I think some of Trump's tariff talks is just that, talk.

not saying he won't introduce tariffs I imagine that theyre going to be more punitive toward countries in a way of trying to force copyright and trade , infringement protections,, and open the market


Posted by boogiewoogie1978
Little Rock
Member since Aug 2012
19334 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:22 pm to
Without writing 6 paragraphs like yourself. Why not try something different for a change? It's obvious gov spending and Bidenomics are shite.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
295410 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:24 pm to
quote:


Difference is the word WORKING in your post.


They arent going to hire traditional workers, they're importing workers to fill new jobs.

We mfg whats efficient for us to mfg and offshore the rest.

Much mfg has already fled China, and theyre not coming here. Theyre going to Vietnam, Mexico, etc.
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
138911 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:24 pm to
The principal is simple. Tariff what we make, don’t tariff what we don’t make.

If tariffs are good enough for other countries why not us?

Principled free traders do not take into account the exfiltraion of wealth and the movement of the economy to more of a service based economy if we don’t protect the industries in our country that make stuff.

Service based economies are poor.

Economies that extract value from natural resources are rich.
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
109599 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:24 pm to
quote:


I will say that I think some of Trump's tariff talks is just that, talk.

not saying he won't introduce tariffs I imagine that theyre going to be more punitive toward countries in a way of trying to force copyright and trade , infringement protections,, and open the market


A realistic threat of a tariff serves essentially the same purpose as an actually implemented tariff.
Posted by OWLFAN86
Erotic Novelist
Member since Jun 2004
194437 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:24 pm to
quote:

I would much rather approach this issue from the standpoint of tax incentives for keeping or growing American jobs instead of adding tariffs to everything coming in.


Best case scenario Republicans get a good majority in the house and that's the one thing that they focus on is revamping the IRS and taxation
Posted by 50_Tiger
Arlington TX
Member since Jan 2016
42867 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:24 pm to
Tariffs dont need to be forever, but they should be used to effectively change habits because Big Corpo decided a long time ago that it didn't matter who they harmed, as long as they made their product with the best ROI possible.

We aren't playing the same game your Grandpa played in 1960.
Posted by i am dan
NC
Member since Aug 2011
30379 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

Its refreshing to see someone with actual economic knowledge. They'll hate you here, but youre spot on.


Hmmm, so much economic knowledg fit for a obscure message board.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
295410 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

Tariff what we make, don’t tariff what we don’t make.


Basically corporate welfare paid by consumers.
Posted by Junky
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2005
9069 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

What are loss jobs then?


They hardly ever address this. Free trade with other nations does the working class no good when the manufacturing jobs move overseas for cheaper labor costs.

Edit to add: 19th and 20th century policies are great to read and understand. Hardly a blueprint for today’s economic policies. Should we also base our economic policies based on the speed and information available via telegraph? Or is a better policy based on the information exchange via the internet a better path forward in the 21st century?

19th and 20th century China was an absolute mess. No middle class was growing there to compete with the US for jobs. Same could be said for India under British rule. Do you see how policies are required to change over time?

This globalist free trade argument is short sighted for the nation’s middle class. We should be trading on what’s best for America, not what’s best for some company.
This post was edited on 9/24/24 at 1:40 pm
Posted by i am dan
NC
Member since Aug 2011
30379 posts
Posted on 9/24/24 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

Tariffs are taxes on consumers. Nothing more.


So are raised corporate taxes.
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