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Ecumenism - Is it happening??

Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:44 am
Posted by bayoubengals88
LA
Member since Sep 2007
23479 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:44 am
Catholics, what are your thoughts on the Bishop of Rome study 2024 that the Vatican approved a couple of months ago?
I read it as an optimistic Presbyterian who would love to see unity and communion.
It's astounding to see the Roman Catholic Church essentially saying We were wrong. The role of the pope during the second millennium was an unjustifiable departure from the period before the Great Schism (1054).

I'm sure many Catholics don't like this document, and that may be an understatement...But I don't know because I'm not Roman Catholic. So please tell me how you feel.

In short, it seems like the Church is attempting to totally reevaluate the way they interpret Vatican I, thus walking back the last 1,000 years of the evolution of the papacy.

quote:

Paragraph 56:
If Christian unity is one of the primary ‘necessities of the
Church’, how then can papal primacy be exercised to comply with
this necessity? What pertains to the order of de iure divino and what
can be considered contingent? “The ministry of unity also is
defined as ‘Petrine Ministry’. This ministry as an enduring element
in the church of Christ has found respect and living expression
since the earliest times. Nonetheless, in the course of history,
controversies arose over particular structures and forms of this
expression” (L–C Germ 2000, 153). Indeed, many ecumenical
problems, fears, or dissatisfactions are primarily linked to
contingent and therefore changeable features of papal primacy.
Some features of papal primacy, which originally responded to a
genuine need in a specific period of Church history, continued to
subsist, even after the reason for their origin had disappeared.
“One
must further pose the question of whether and to what degree the
Roman Catholic Church fundamentally sees a possibility of a form
of communion of the non–Catholic churches with the pope, in
which the essence of the Petrine Ministry of unity is preserved, but
in canonical forms other than those that have been presented as
normative since the Middle Ages, and especially in the modern
period” (L–C Germ 2000, 200). The same is true for the extension
of papal primacy over various areas of Church life; historical
circumstances, which once justified a more or less far-reaching
extension of primacy in ecclesial matters, might have changed. It is
therefore “important to distinguish between the essence of a
ministry of primacy and any particular ways in which it has been or
is currently being exercised”


quote:

Paragraph 91: The Response recalls the words of the
then Cardinal Ratzinger: “As far as the doctrine of the primacy is
concerned, Rome must not require more of the East than was
formulated and lived during the first millennium”,
19 concluding,“such an approach offers considerable hope, and could make possible a fresh consideration of many matters in which churches
have developed in separation from one another” (54). The
Lutheran–Catholic dialogue in Germany also calls for “the
possibility of an orientation to the exercise of primacy in the first
Christian millennium without reference to later developments”


Full Study

I stumbled upon this document listening to this very helpful podcast by an Anglo-Catholic who many of the most relevant paragraphs. Spotify
Posted by Meauxjeaux
102836 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
45537 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:48 am to
Too much legalism up in here for me.
Posted by AllbyMyRelf
Virginia
Member since Nov 2014
3987 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:50 am to
I haven’t read the full document you linked, but the quoted language does not, IMO, offer much hope of unity between Catholics and Protestants.

Yes, papal primacy is an obstacle to ecumenism, but it is not the primary obstacle. The doctrine of the sacraments, the method and process by which grace is conferred to men, the doctrine of justification, and the doctrine of sanctification are the primary obstacles.

Not even to mention issues such as exegesis, church governance, and canonical authority outside scriptures.

Ecumenism would be great, but these would be deal breakers for both sides.
Posted by Bjorn Cyborg
Member since Sep 2016
33775 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:52 am to
As a Presbyterian, why do you care?

If you want to be Catholic, you can convert.

As a Catholic, I don't care about the inner-workings and policy decisions of the Presbyterian church.
Posted by Bjorn Cyborg
Member since Sep 2016
33775 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:54 am to
quote:

Ecumenism would be great


Why?

It's never going to happen. The differences are too great.
Posted by Mid Iowa Tiger
Undisclosed Secure Location
Member since Feb 2008
23501 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:54 am to
So does that mean Protestants would return to the original belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

Seems like that is a bigger stumbling block than Papal authority and infallibility with infallibility being exercised only a couple of times in the history of the church.
Posted by AllbyMyRelf
Virginia
Member since Nov 2014
3987 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:55 am to
quote:

As a Presbyterian, why do you care? If you want to be Catholic, you can convert. As a Catholic, I don't care about the inner-workings and policy decisions of the Presbyterian church.
As a Christian, I care about the unity of the body of Christ, which is the Church.

Unless you view non-Catholics as non-Christians as a per se rule (which you might), then unity would seem to be a worthwhile goal in bringing about the kingdom of Christ.
Posted by AllbyMyRelf
Virginia
Member since Nov 2014
3987 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:56 am to
quote:

Why? It's never going to happen. The differences are too great.
Notice that saying unity is good is not the same thing as saying it is likely.
Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
85757 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:59 am to
quote:

As a Christian, I care about the unity of the body of Christ, which is the Church.

Unless you view non-Catholics as non-Christians as a per se rule (which you might), then unity would seem to be a worthwhile goal in bringing about the kingdom of Christ.


This is a good response IMO.
Posted by AllbyMyRelf
Virginia
Member since Nov 2014
3987 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 11:59 am to
quote:

So does that mean Protestants would return to the original belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Seems like that is a bigger stumbling block than Papal authority and infallibility with infallibility being exercised only a couple of times in the history of the church.
Transubstantiation was not high on the list of why the church splintered. Luther himself said he could tolerate transubstantiation if the Catholic Church adopted reformed views on justification.

Also, transubstantiation was not official Catholic dogma until LanFranc pushed for it to become so in the 11th century.
Posted by Bjorn Cyborg
Member since Sep 2016
33775 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:00 pm to
quote:

Unless you view non-Catholics as non-Christians


Of course I don't hold this view. I have no issue with protestants. I think different people like and believe different things and if they weren't able to hold the church together long ago in a much simpler time, the idea that it can be brought together today is silly.

Besides, I don't want a pop band at mass.
Posted by bayoubengals88
LA
Member since Sep 2007
23479 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:00 pm to
quote:

As a Presbyterian, why do you care?

If you want to be Catholic, you can convert.
-The Spirit of Christ at work, folks.

Geez, man.
Posted by bayoubengals88
LA
Member since Sep 2007
23479 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:02 pm to
quote:

Besides, I don't want a pop band at mass.

That's the last thing I'd want. From what I understand, it would be a "communion of communions" not an absorption. So yes, I care.
Posted by Fat Bastard
2024 NFL pick'em champion
Member since Mar 2009
87515 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:02 pm to
quote:

So does that mean Protestants would return to the original belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?



yeah they do not celebrate the eucharistic celebration correctly either.

Also they better throw out their beliefs also then in sola fide and sola scriptura which have both been debunked countless times among other things.

LINK

foomanchew will be here soon



Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
116609 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:03 pm to
I'm not interested in anything out of Rome until there is an official Papal denunciation of Communism.
Posted by Knartfocker
Member since Jun 2020
1656 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:03 pm to
quote:

unity of the body of Christ


I think that's the key to the whole thing. What does unity ultimately mean? Does it mean all Christians' consciences are binded by the same doctrines? Or does it mean that all Christians have access to the Truth no matter how they practice the faith? There's a ton of detail in there that needs to be ironed out. Our grandchildren will most likely all be dead before this gets figured out
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
61997 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:04 pm to
As a non Catholic, and a former Catholic, I don’t give a whit about what the RCC says about me or about anything actually.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
45431 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:05 pm to
They should rethink the last 1500+ years of the papacy. In the beginning, the church was Presbyterian (elder-ruled) and slowly turned into an episcopate where one bishop eventually took prominence until a singular bishop became supreme based on their location in Rome.
Posted by Fat Bastard
2024 NFL pick'em champion
Member since Mar 2009
87515 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:05 pm to
quote:

I'm not interested in anything out of Rome until there is an official Papal denunciation of Communism.


pope john paul already fought communism with reagan.

benedict fought the muzzies and was threatened.

this dude now? yeah well..................
Posted by jeffsdad
Member since Mar 2007
24015 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 12:06 pm to
Was a big fear in the 80s, hadn't heard much of it lately.
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