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re: Pelicans are not expected to offer BI extension this offseason, moving in new direction
Posted on 5/6/24 at 9:54 am to ghost2most
Posted on 5/6/24 at 9:54 am to ghost2most
I’m looking at cashing out while we can on BI because his value isn’t getting much better once he gets that new contract short of using whatever illegal medical treatments LeBron is using to prolong his career.
I’m not saying to just dump him for nothing but missing our window to move him will be damaging in both missed opportunities with assets as well as affecting playing time and salaries for other major players like Trey.
I’m not saying to just dump him for nothing but missing our window to move him will be damaging in both missed opportunities with assets as well as affecting playing time and salaries for other major players like Trey.
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:00 am to ghost2most
quote:Man, some here really overvalue Allen. I am not sure he is more valuable than Herb.
And I think Allen has clearly jumped ahead of BI in value at this point.
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:03 am to NOSHAU
He’s definitely more valuable than Herb, but Ingram has more value than Allen
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:04 am to Soggymoss
Is he? elite vertical spacer, but oft injured.
Herb is elite defender, stable health, and now added corner 3 to his game.
Herb is elite defender, stable health, and now added corner 3 to his game.
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:07 am to htran90
He played 77 of 82 games this past season…
68 the season before
He’s not injured as much as you believe
68 the season before
He’s not injured as much as you believe
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:14 am to shel311
quote:
They couldn't get the right deal that worked for them, which is very different from they couldn't get anything.
You're reading that as they got good offers, they just wanted more.
The reality is, they got shite offers.
Deangelo Russel and a future first
Fournier, Grimes and a future first.
Dinwiddie and a future first.
The most anyone was offering them was one first round pick. And they couldn't accept that b/c they gave up more than that to get him.
When multiple teams offer around the same shite sandwich, then that's about the worth of that guy. It's not going to drastically change just b/c of the next 20 games.
That's what his value was at that time. It was and still is 2 future firsts.
Now imagine we made BI availalbe at the deadline. What do you think the offer from the Nets would have been? Dinwiddie and a first? NO. It would have be Cam Johnson, Claxton and 3 firsts, and then more teams would have entered into a bidding war for him.
I dont disagree he has hurt his trade value over the last 15 games of the season, but he's still a much more valuable player than Murray.
BI's value didn't go from a good young player and 3-4 firsts to expiring contracts and 2 lottery protected firsts just b/c of the last 15 games.
This post was edited on 5/6/24 at 10:18 am
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:18 am to Soggymoss
Just spitballing here.
BI to Detroit for Stewart and their pick (2 or 3 most likely)
We get a 20 million TPE and keep 21. Take Topic or Sheppard with Detroit pick and get the guard of the future.
Now, where it gets interesting is seeing what Minnesota will do. They are currently in the 2nd apron and likely won’t look to stay there. Their only salary besides Ant,KAT or Gobert that would be feasible to move and keep them under that 2nd apron after filling out the roster would be Naz Reid. IF the courts force the sale through of the Wolves, Lore and Arod already released a no tax mandate so they would have to likely move Reid and Conley then.
Flip 21 to Minny for Reid and take him back into the TPE. Send them Dyson also if they demand him.
Topic/CJ/Jose
Herb/Hawk/Naji
Trey/Dyson/Matt
Zion/Nance/EJ
Stewart/Reid/FA
That would also allow us to move Nance back to his natural 4 position and likely take alot of wear and tear off him.
After this trade we also have a comfortable 26 million under the tax, around 18-17 million after signing draft pick. That would allow Naji back on an 8 million a year deal, and still leave us plenty room to make a lopsided trade later in the year if we choose
BI to Detroit for Stewart and their pick (2 or 3 most likely)
We get a 20 million TPE and keep 21. Take Topic or Sheppard with Detroit pick and get the guard of the future.
Now, where it gets interesting is seeing what Minnesota will do. They are currently in the 2nd apron and likely won’t look to stay there. Their only salary besides Ant,KAT or Gobert that would be feasible to move and keep them under that 2nd apron after filling out the roster would be Naz Reid. IF the courts force the sale through of the Wolves, Lore and Arod already released a no tax mandate so they would have to likely move Reid and Conley then.
Flip 21 to Minny for Reid and take him back into the TPE. Send them Dyson also if they demand him.
Topic/CJ/Jose
Herb/Hawk/Naji
Trey/Dyson/Matt
Zion/Nance/EJ
Stewart/Reid/FA
That would also allow us to move Nance back to his natural 4 position and likely take alot of wear and tear off him.
After this trade we also have a comfortable 26 million under the tax, around 18-17 million after signing draft pick. That would allow Naji back on an 8 million a year deal, and still leave us plenty room to make a lopsided trade later in the year if we choose
This post was edited on 5/6/24 at 10:41 am
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:23 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:And Jarrett Allen is a good defensive big who averaged 17 and 11 on 63% from the field with a 66% TS%, and is a 1x All Star.
We have a top 5 defender in the league that shoots 40% from 3
I'd guraantee if you polled non Pels and non Cavs fans or the Zach Lowes of the world, none would say Herb has more trade value than Allen.
quote:No, just no.
What Allen does is done by guys making less than half of what he does.
quote:Because the likelihood of getting a big who can hit a 3 and be a starter playing 28+ minutes is slim, but that doesn't mean you should just punt on the position and be shitty at it just because you can't get a big who can shoot the 3. I don't follow your logic here.
All y'all do is bitch about wanting to shoot more 3's. Inserting Jarrett Allen into the starting lineup will make it even more difficult to shoot more 3's
This goes back to the discussion we were having last week, every time we discuss a trade, and someone says they like it or would do it, that does not mean it's the top option and that poster's #1 favorite trade. It's just discussing that particular deal at the moment.
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:24 am to NOSHAU
quote:He's certainly less valuable than BI
Man, some here really overvalue Allen. I am not sure he is more valuable than Herb.
He's certainly more valuable than Herb
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:27 am to htran90
quote:
Is he?
quote:Since Herb joined the NBA 3 seasons ago, Herb has played 220 games to Allen's 201.
but oft injured.
6 games on average per season difference, not really much there.
Allen has also played more games in each of the past 2 seasons than Herb.
quote:Herb certainly is all those things. Allen is also, as I mentioned, 17 and 11 on 63% from the field and a good defender.
Herb is elite defender, stable health, and now added corner 3 to his game.
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:29 am to Soggymoss
I think that's a dumb move for Detroit, and an even dumber move for us.
They should be still buidling through the draft.
I have no interest in any pick in this draft in a trade of BI.
We have assets to attach to BI to go get a better player. We should be big game hunting, not doing some sort of soft rebuild.
They should be still buidling through the draft.
I have no interest in any pick in this draft in a trade of BI.
We have assets to attach to BI to go get a better player. We should be big game hunting, not doing some sort of soft rebuild.
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:33 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I think that's a dumb move for Detroit
Detroit has made it well known the last thing they want is another young guy on their team. They want to make win now moves.
quote:
and an even dumber move for us.
Explain how? You get a young PG that everyone here has been clamoring for, and two bigs that shoot 38 and 41% from 3
This also leaves you the ability to make a corresponding move and take in extra salary with the trade if we would really want to get crazy and send Herb to Atlanta for a straight swap with Murray.
So with that a BI, Herb and 21 trade beings back Murray, Stewart, Reid and also your PG of the future.
That’s a haul no matter how you want to try to spin it
quote:
I have no interest in any pick in this draft in a trade of BI.
Nobody had interest in the #1 pick when Minnesota was begging for teams to take it in what was supposed to be a bad draft. Teams are kicking themselves now for not doing it.
quote:
We have assets to attach to BI to go get a better player. We should be big game hunting, not doing some sort of soft rebuild.
Nobody of that caliber is available.
This post was edited on 5/6/24 at 10:36 am
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:34 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I have no interest in any pick in this draft in a trade of BI. We have assets to attach to BI to go get a better player. We should be big game hunting, not doing some sort of soft rebuild.
TBH, I’m not sure we need a better player near as much as a better fit. BI and Zion’s game don’t gel.
Problem becomes figuring out who would be a better fit without too much of a downgrade in ability.
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:39 am to Soggymoss
Who the hell is Jovic? You mean topic?
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:40 am to Macintosh504
quote:
Who the hell is Jovic? You mean topic?
Yeah, him
To many Nikola’s coming in to the league
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:50 am to shel311
quote:
And Jarrett Allen is a good defensive big who averaged 17 and 11 on 63% from the field with a 66% TS%, and is a 1x All Star.
I"m not saying he isn't good, or that i wouldn't want him.
We have too many other assets to give up if we want him, and there are other 5's in the league we can get that can fit our needs for less.
quote:
I'd guraantee if you polled non Pels and non Cavs fans or the Zach Lowes of the world, none would say Herb has more trade value than Allen.
If there was a way to prove this, i'd say go ahead and do that b/c i don't believe that.
Herb is not Matisse Thybule. He can shoot. and he hits his free throws, and he can finish at the rim. He is literally a player every team in the league would love to have.
Seriously, if you add Herb to any team right now, which one doesn't start him? Celtics and who else? Literally every other team would move someone to the bench to start Herb and give him 30+ minutes a game.
Give me a list of guys who shoot 40% from 3, are all nba perimeter defenders, and will make under $15M/yr for the next 3 years. You want to bring up BI's future contract as a deterrent, then don't just piss away the fact that Herb has 3/$42M left on his deal. That's a huge advantage Herb has in his favor.
Here's the list of guys who play the 5 who had a better defensive FG% than Jarrett Allen this year.
Zubac
Kessler
Gobert
Porzingis
Chet
Hartenstein
Isaac
Wemby
Brook Lopez
AD
Claxton
Goga
Gafford
Capela
Day'Ron Sharpe was at 57.5% compared to Jarrett Allen's 55.9%
Trace jackson David, Santi Aldama, Isaiah Jackson and Jalen Smith were all in that same % or better than Sharpe.
One of those guys on that list we can get for basically nothing, but sure, lets give up Herb b/c Jarrett Allen is "Herb much better" than Claxton.
Again, Allen is a really good center, and i love his hustle. I'd love to have him, but he does not hold more value than a 40% 3 point shooter who's one of the best defenders in the league. It's astonishing to me that all of you who want us to throw up as many 3's as possible can think Allen is more valuable than Herb.
This post was edited on 5/6/24 at 11:00 am
Posted on 5/6/24 at 10:59 am to Soggymoss
quote:
Detroit has made it well known the last thing they want is another young guy on their team. They want to make win now moves.
didn't know that. Then i guess it's not a dumb move for them.
quote:
Nobody had interest in the #1 pick when Minnesota was begging for teams to take it in what was supposed to be a bad draft. Teams are kicking themselves now for not doing it.
It's not b/c i think the draft is bad, it's b/c we have 3 years to prove to Zion we can get to the summit or he's requesting a trade. trading BI for role players and a draft pick isn't going to help with that imo.
quote:
Nobody of that caliber is available.
ok
Explain to me why nobody better than BI is available to us?
Posted on 5/6/24 at 11:07 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
It's not b/c i think the draft is bad, it's b/c we have 3 years to prove to Zion we can get to the summit or he's requesting a trade. trading BI for role players and a draft pick isn't going to help with that imo.
At this point I think surrounding Zion with good shooting players to open everything up for him is the best moves we can make.
Say we do the flip of Herb for Murray, you can have a closing 5 of Murray, CJ, Trey, Zion, Reid. That’s 4 40% C&S shooters surrounding Zion that NOBODY can leave open, forcing teams to have to play Z 1 on 1 otherwise they would get decimated from 3. We can do moves to get better now without necessarily getting back a better player than Ingram.
quote:
Explain to me why nobody better than BI is available to us?
Currently there just is nobody better that’s available to anyone. Paul George would be about the best option right now, but if he were to leave LA and come to us in a S&T we could definitely make that S&T for leas cost than BI.
This post was edited on 5/6/24 at 11:09 am
Posted on 5/6/24 at 11:20 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Again, Allen is a really good center, and i love his hustle. I'd love to have him, but he does not hold more value than a 40% 3 point shooter who's one of the best defenders in the league. It's astonishing to me that all of you who want us to throw up as many 3's as possible can think Allen is more valuable than Herb.
I would say they are pretty even in terms of value. FYI Simmons, who loves Herb, ranked Herb at 72 and Allen at 45 in terms of trade value at the deadline.
Rim protectors are just worth more than perimeter defenders, though I can agree that Herb is the type of player that any team would want.
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