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re: Shogun - Official Series Discussion Thread **Spoilers**
Posted on 3/6/24 at 10:29 am to kingbob
Posted on 3/6/24 at 10:29 am to kingbob
quote:
My main issue was with the actress’s fight choreography. She didn’t look confident using those weapons compared to the other characters in the scene.
Yep, only complaint. The fight itself was fine. She was using a weapon that lends itself to when you're outnumbered. It made sense, she just didn't look very good doing it yet still got the job done. Choreography/actor problem, not premise.
2
Posted on 3/6/24 at 10:52 am to GoCrazyAuburn
It must be hard as frick to swim in a Gi
Posted on 3/6/24 at 10:53 am to Boodis Man
quote:
that's great but in combat no combat trained female is taking out a group of trained combat men, c'mon son, you know its bs just admit it
The book was more realistic with her fighting ability.
quote:
At that instant Blackthorne saw Mariko come to life. She threw herself into the unsuspecting samurai’s legs, crashing him to the deck. Then, scrambling across to the dead Gray, she grabbed the sword out of his still twitching hand and leaped on the guard with a cry. The Gray had regained his feet, and, howling with rage, he came at her. She backed and slashed bravely but Blackthorne knew she was lost, the man too strong. Somehow Blackthorne avoided another death thrust from his own foe and kicked him away and threw his knife at Mariko’s assailant. It struck the man in the back, causing his blow to go wild, and then Blackthorne found himself on the quarterdeck, helplessly at bay, one Gray bounding up the steps after him, the other, who had just won the forepoop fight, racing toward him along the deck. He jumped for the gunwale and the safety of the sea but slipped on the blood-wet deck. Mariko was staring up, white-faced, at the huge samurai who still had her cornered, swaying on his feet, his life ebbing fast but not fast enough. She hacked at him with all her force but he parried the blow, held her sword, and tore it out of her grasp. He gathered his ultimate strength, and lunged as the ronin-samurai burst up the gangway, over the dead Grays. One pounced on Mariko’s assailant, another fired an arrow at the quarterdeck.
Posted on 3/6/24 at 11:04 am to nes2010
Apparently I’m missing something because I didn’t really see the show portray her unrealistically. As someone pointed out, she was able to fight but still showed some discomfort in wielding the weapon she did.
It’s not like she showed up like Uma Thurman in Kill Bill or something.
It’s not like she showed up like Uma Thurman in Kill Bill or something.
Posted on 3/6/24 at 11:43 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
she just didn't look very good doing it yet still got the job done.
That's the point though, at least to me.
She did what she had to do, and was successful at helping. But she isn't good at it and didn't look like she was flying around slaying people.
Posted on 3/6/24 at 12:05 pm to DukeSilver
quote:
That's the point though, at least to me.
quote:
That's the point though, at least to me.
She did what she had to do, and was successful at helping. But she isn't good at it and didn't look like she was flying around slaying people.
Not the point i'm arguing. Her just standing her ground surrounded by multiple enemies and doing lazy slashes yet just cutting enemy after enemy down is bad choreography and isn't believable. That was the only problem. It just was not a well choreographed fight scene for her character.
This post was edited on 3/6/24 at 12:06 pm
Posted on 3/6/24 at 12:09 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
Ah, ok yeah I agree she definitely would have gone down.
Posted on 3/6/24 at 7:59 pm to DukeSilver
I love it so far. My only complaint is the lack of hotties. Main chick is smoking but that's it. 
Posted on 3/6/24 at 10:36 pm to The Ramp
I just watched the episode, this continues to be great.
As for the "girl power" Mariko scene... THAT'S your issue? That Mariko picked up a spear and was dealing with guys who didn't have a long enough weapon to get inside her reach? For frick's sake
... some people are just looking for grievances.
And I agree, her choreography in that scene wasn't good. You could tell the actress wasn't proficient.
But to be fair- there's a shite ton going on.
a) the actual Mariko (daughter of a bigtime warlord) probably would have been better trained
b) it was dark, in the woods, and some dudes are on the hillsides shooting at everyone in the caravan
c) when Ishido's men learned Toranaga was there, they would have been looking for armed/armored Samurai first, although they'd intend to kill the entire party
d) they'd still have to deal with the 3rd party attackers, who were still shooting arrows at them (and I think also running down with swords too).
Woman squatting in a geisha robe wouldn't be high on their list of priorities, you might not notice the spear at first.
As for the "girl power" Mariko scene... THAT'S your issue? That Mariko picked up a spear and was dealing with guys who didn't have a long enough weapon to get inside her reach? For frick's sake
... some people are just looking for grievances. And I agree, her choreography in that scene wasn't good. You could tell the actress wasn't proficient.
But to be fair- there's a shite ton going on.
a) the actual Mariko (daughter of a bigtime warlord) probably would have been better trained
b) it was dark, in the woods, and some dudes are on the hillsides shooting at everyone in the caravan
c) when Ishido's men learned Toranaga was there, they would have been looking for armed/armored Samurai first, although they'd intend to kill the entire party
d) they'd still have to deal with the 3rd party attackers, who were still shooting arrows at them (and I think also running down with swords too).
Woman squatting in a geisha robe wouldn't be high on their list of priorities, you might not notice the spear at first.
Posted on 3/7/24 at 4:47 am to SaintEB
quote:
Is this more woke shite?
Fair question.. it’s by far the biggest deterrent for me with shows trying to virtue signal.
I’m def gonna watch
Posted on 3/7/24 at 8:30 am to Scoob
I think this show is great. Great story, good scenery, acting and character building, and no wokeness. I don't really care that Mariko doesn't fight as well as Bruce Lee. I enjoy watching the Japanese culture and storyline of the times.
Posted on 3/8/24 at 8:11 am to Scoob
quote:
As for the "girl power" Mariko scene... THAT'S your issue? That Mariko picked up a spear and was dealing with guys who didn't have a long enough weapon to get inside her reach? For frick's sake ... some people are just looking for grievances.
And I agree, her choreography in that scene wasn't good. You could tell the actress wasn't proficient.
Yeah, not remotely woke. The point was to show her dedication and service to her Lord. I didn't need to see a Matrix, John Wick fight scene. Great episode. That makes it 3 for 3. Starting to feel sad about only seven left.
Posted on 3/8/24 at 8:25 am to 98eagle
quote:
I think this show is great. Great story, good scenery, acting and character building, and no wokeness. I don't really care that Mariko doesn't fight as well as Bruce Lee. I enjoy watching the Japanese culture and storyline of the times.
this
Posted on 3/8/24 at 8:44 am to Scoob
quote:
As for the "girl power" Mariko scene... THAT'S your issue? That Mariko picked up a spear and was dealing with guys who didn't have a long enough weapon to get inside her reach? For frick's sake ... some people are just looking for grievances.
And for all we hear about shoehorning things in, it was an accurate depiction of their culture in the 17th century. Women were trained to fight up until around that time. The shift happened around the time we’re watching, but those women would’ve been trained to fight along Samurai and to protect the home/harems.
Shogun has been lauded (book and older series) over their accuracy of the time period. It’s my understanding her depiction in this series is pretty true to the book/older series.
They can holler “girl power” but a female warrior class actually existed up until the Edo period. Her depiction as having skills to fight is actually “anti-woke” by its definition because it hasn’t been changed to modern standards.
This post was edited on 3/8/24 at 8:46 am
Posted on 3/8/24 at 9:17 am to BluegrassBelle
I feel stupid that I'm asking this after three episodes of a show I'm enjoying because I feel like it's a basic point, but why is Blackthorne so important? I don't really see why right from the start he was viewed as someone so integral to everyone's plans.
Blackthorne's actors voice/overacting is the only thing I'm not crazy about. His voice is just awful and so fake and distracting. Watched an interview with him and they should have just went with his normal voice instead of trying to have a Charles Vane from Black Sails voice but to the 10th degree. That's the one thing I'm not crazy about in an otherwise great show, I just hate that it's the main character.
Blackthorne's actors voice/overacting is the only thing I'm not crazy about. His voice is just awful and so fake and distracting. Watched an interview with him and they should have just went with his normal voice instead of trying to have a Charles Vane from Black Sails voice but to the 10th degree. That's the one thing I'm not crazy about in an otherwise great show, I just hate that it's the main character.
Posted on 3/8/24 at 9:33 am to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
why is Blackthorne so important?
1. He has already brought cannon, musket, and a European sailing ship to the Toranaga side.
2. He provided information that the Portuguese have a secret base in Macau and a secret plan to supplant Ishido with a Christian Japanese ruler; this will divide the Council of Regents, which was previously 4-1 against Toranaga (this is the most important point up to now).
3. He serves as a potential counter to Portuguese monopoly on trade.
Basically, he is a wild card that has been tossed into the game that was seriously slanted against Toranaga.
Posted on 3/8/24 at 9:35 am to iwyLSUiwy
There’s several reasons:
1. Blackthorne’s ship was well armed. Since the kingdom was knowingly on the brink of civil war, possession of the cannons and firearms inside would be incredibly valuable considering Japan did not manufacture guns at all in this time period.
2. The Portuguese were the only Europeans or Christians the Japanese were aware of. Finding out that not only are there rival warring nations to the Portuguese but also rival Christian religions made them realize that the Portuguese had been holding back knowledge.
3. The Portuguese monopoly on outside trade was making the Portuguese and a handful of connected Japanese lords rich, but was extremely expensive to the rest of the country. Finding alternative trade partners to get access to European goods could greatly enrich the Japanese economy as a whole. Japan, as an island, is lacking in many critical resources for industrialization. One of the reasons why European knights had plate armor but Japanese samurai had the style of armor they did was because of the shortage of iron available in Japan. Europe had much more plentiful iron ore deposits and significantly more coal (which is essential for making steel).
1. Blackthorne’s ship was well armed. Since the kingdom was knowingly on the brink of civil war, possession of the cannons and firearms inside would be incredibly valuable considering Japan did not manufacture guns at all in this time period.
2. The Portuguese were the only Europeans or Christians the Japanese were aware of. Finding out that not only are there rival warring nations to the Portuguese but also rival Christian religions made them realize that the Portuguese had been holding back knowledge.
3. The Portuguese monopoly on outside trade was making the Portuguese and a handful of connected Japanese lords rich, but was extremely expensive to the rest of the country. Finding alternative trade partners to get access to European goods could greatly enrich the Japanese economy as a whole. Japan, as an island, is lacking in many critical resources for industrialization. One of the reasons why European knights had plate armor but Japanese samurai had the style of armor they did was because of the shortage of iron available in Japan. Europe had much more plentiful iron ore deposits and significantly more coal (which is essential for making steel).
Posted on 3/8/24 at 9:50 am to kingbob
It’s also worth noting how much it has to sting for the Japanese that the Portuguese is portraying to the rest of the world that they “own” Japan. That’s a cut that runs deep with a country that is very prideful.
Posted on 3/8/24 at 10:19 am to BluegrassBelle
“Did he really say ‘belong?’”
This post was edited on 3/8/24 at 10:20 am
Posted on 3/8/24 at 10:26 am to kingbob
4. Blackthorne has knowledge of the secret Portuguese bases that have been constructed in Japan's territory and their goals of implanting their own rulers in Japan (not that any of the other European countries won't be trying that either but the Japanese don't know that yet). Also knowledge of what the Catholics have been doing in Macao.
This post was edited on 3/8/24 at 10:31 am
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