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Scott Ritter on Ukraine and Finland joining NATO
Posted on 5/12/22 at 11:33 am
Posted on 5/12/22 at 11:33 am
Posted on 5/12/22 at 11:49 am to JAGuyHeh
Since when has Finland needed help. They've been fighting off Russia since before the U.S. was a dirty thought in Spain's mind.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:04 pm to JAGuyHeh
Why wouldn't Finland want to join NATO?
Trying to join NATO has worked out so well for Ukraine.
Trying to join NATO has worked out so well for Ukraine.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:25 pm to squid_hunt
quote:
Since when has Finland needed help.
If you believe that NATO in its current form is about protecting member countries from outside aggressors, well, I can’t help you.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:36 pm to squid_hunt
quote:
Since when has Finland needed help. They've been fighting off Russia since before the U.S. was a dirty thought in Spain's mind.
Not sure what you mean by Spain. And Finland ultimately lost territory to the Soviet Union. They signed a treaty of perpetual neutrality, which the USSR then respected, and Russia has as well. Joining NATO violates the treaty they signed.
There is no need to provoke Russia. Russia has announced it wants Ukraine and Finland as well as other states to be neutral. Why is this bad?
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:39 pm to Epaminondas
quote:imagine invading a country on your border because you didn't want them to join NATO, failing to conquer that nation, having your military incompetence exposed, having your shitty gear exposed so the other dirtbag countries don't want to buy it anymore, and causing 2 other countries you didn't want to join NATO to immediately join NATO, and then trying to act like you can do anything about it militarily. Invading Ukraine is working out great for Russia
Trying to join NATO has worked out so well for Ukraine.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:41 pm to JAGuyHeh
quote:
There is no need to provoke Russia. Russia has announced it wants Ukraine and Finland as well as other states to be neutral. Why is this bad?
It is "bad" in the sense that under no circumstances do Russia's preferences rightfully dictate the foreign policy decisions of sovereign nations. Other countries not doing what you want them to do is simply not lawful justification for military aggression.
Once again, Finland and Sweden deciding, in their own prerogative, to join NATO, is demonstrably not "provoking" anything. Throughout NATO's entire existence, not one single member has ever threatened Russia or Russian territory in any meaningful way.
It is a land and power grab by Moscow. Nothing more.
quote:
They signed a treaty of perpetual neutrality, which the USSR then respected, and Russia has as well.
And I am assuming you mean the treaty signed after Russian began yet another war of conquest with no legitimate basis and took Karelia from Finland?
This post was edited on 5/12/22 at 1:44 pm
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:43 pm to narddogg81
quote:
magine invading a country on your border because you didn't want them to join NATO, failing to conquer that nation, having your military incompetence exposed, having your shitty gear exposed so the other dirtbag countries don't want to buy it anymore, and causing 2 other countries you didn't want to join NATO to immediately join NATO, and then trying to act like you can do anything about it militarily. Invading Ukraine is working out great for Russia
Russia is not losing. Ukraine is losing badly. You'll see when Poland decides to annex Lyiv and parts of western Ukraine. It will be partitioned.
Joining NATO is not an immediate process. You should read up on the treaty and how that actually works.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:44 pm to JAGuyHeh
quote:
You'll see when Poland decides to annex Lyiv and parts of western Ukraine. It will be partitioned.
Bet.
quote:
Joining NATO is not an immediate process. You should read up on the treaty and how that actually works.
It can be as immediate as the NATO member states want it to be.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:46 pm to JAGuyHeh
Countries have the right to join organizations if they want to. Russia fricked it all up by invading Ukraine the way they did. If Putin had played it smart, sticking to Donbas region, sleepy Joe wouldn't have even noticed it.
Millie to Joe "Russia has invaded Donbas!"
Joe: "Trump says I am a dumbass"
Millie; "Yes you are, but Russia is invading the Donbas region of Ukraine."
Joe: "I think they are like whooping cranes, but I may be wrong. Where is my pudding cup?"
Millie to Joe "Russia has invaded Donbas!"
Joe: "Trump says I am a dumbass"
Millie; "Yes you are, but Russia is invading the Donbas region of Ukraine."
Joe: "I think they are like whooping cranes, but I may be wrong. Where is my pudding cup?"
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:47 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
It is "bad" in the sense that under no circumstances do Russia's preferences rightfully dictate the foreign policy decisions of sovereign nations. Other countries not doing what you want them to do is simply not lawful justification for military aggression.
Russia does not want thousands of miles of militarized borders, which is what exactly what would happen if Finland joined.
Finland historically was part of the Russian Empire, the Duchy of Finland.
When I said provoke, I meant the entire NATO expansion operation that the neocons have engineered for decades. NATO originally was not going to expand, but it did anyway. The elites in charge are dishonest at the very least.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:47 pm to Lynxrufus2012
quote:
Russia fricked it all up by invading Ukraine the way they did. If Putin had played it smart, sticking to Donbas region, sleepy Joe wouldn't have even noticed it.
This. Russia overplayed their hand, and IMO underestimated the ability of the NATO states to coalesce quickly.
Had they just set out to annex Donbas and establish a corridor to Crimea, this would have been over in days right from the beginning.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 1:49 pm to JAGuyHeh
quote:
Russia does not want thousands of miles of militarized borders, which is what exactly what would happen if Finland joined.
And yet, nothing Russia wants or doesn't want justifies their attempt to dictate the foreign policy decisions of sovereign nations.
quote:
Finland historically was part of the Russian Empire, the Duchy of Finland.
There is essentially no possible way for this to be less relevant.
quote:Oh, so you mean the former Warsaw Pact countries, using their sovereign prerogatives, choosing to apply for NATO membership?
When I said provoke, I meant the entire NATO expansion operation that the neocons have engineered for decades
quote:
NATO originally was not going to expand, but it did anyway.
Once again, nothing Russia thinks, wants, or used to have can possibly lawfully dictate what other countries do. It is a ridiculous premise that is even more underscored by the fact that Russia laid down like a bitch when the Baltic states and Poland joined in 2004. They weren't "threatened" then. They are using that excuse now because they feel froggy and need to sell their decision to jump.
This post was edited on 5/12/22 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 5/12/22 at 2:00 pm to JAGuyHeh
quote:
Not sure what you mean by Spain.
Spain sent Columbus to the Americas?
quote:
There is no need to provoke Russia.
Pretty sure Putin just proved there is a reason, but ultimately the decision lies with Finland, don't you think?
quote:
Joining NATO violates the treaty they signed.
The treaty they signed at the end of a gun? Ok. Sure.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 2:04 pm to squid_hunt
Treaties are made to be broken. Both US and Russia are experts.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 2:07 pm to Lynxrufus2012
Ignoring the white guilt barbs, you're right. Treaties are broken all the time.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 2:16 pm to JAGuyHeh
quote:The Finns were (unwilling) vassals to the Russians for about 100 years. They were an important part of the Swedish Empire for 600 years. Gustav Adolphus used Finnish cavalry as his shock troops, because they were both loyal and true badasses.
Finland historically was part of the Russian Empire, the Duchy of Finland.
When Russia took Finland from Sweden, the Finns became and remained a thorn in the paw of the Russian bear until the Russian revolution allowed them to free themselves.
Their effectiveness against the Russians in the WW2 era gets overstated (IMO), and they DID lose substantial territory to the USSR. But they fought like a mean-assed junkyard dog.
This post was edited on 5/12/22 at 2:23 pm
Posted on 5/12/22 at 2:28 pm to JAGuyHeh
quote:How does one "violate" a treaty with a country which no longer exists?
(Finland) signed a treaty of perpetual neutrality, which the USSR then respected .... Joining NATO violates the treaty they signed.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 2:30 pm to JAGuyHeh
I’m not clicking your blind link, but I remain skeptical that Finland joins NATO. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense for them to do so.
Posted on 5/12/22 at 2:32 pm to TigerOnTheMountain
quote:
It just doesn’t make a lot of sense for them to do so.
There is effectively zero downside to doing so, not sure why you would hold that opinion.
Finland only gains from the security guarantee.
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