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Message
re: Unpopular opinion: Putin has a legitimate gripe
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:16 pm to Kansas City King
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:16 pm to Kansas City King
quote:
Unpopular opinion: Taiwan is part of China and is a faction that lost in the last great Chinese Civil war. Only reason they are still around is because they fled to an Island and fortified it while China was getting it's shite together after the Japanese invasion in WW2 and after their communist civil war
OMLandshark bat signal [ENGAGED]
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Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:17 pm to Ag Zwin
quote:Of course he does.
Unpopular opinion: Putin has a legitimate gripe
In no universe can our refusal to say we won't add Ukraine to NATO be viewed as anything but incendiary.
quote:
I am not at all saying this justifies invading Ukraine, but it's not unreasonable for him to be pretty chuffed about all this.
Agreed. We'd be losing our shite if the roles were reversed.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:18 pm to Ag Zwin
quote:
what would be your reaction to Russia doing the same thing along our Mexican border?
My personal reaction would be nothing. The United States does not and should not have the power to dictate relations between two sovereign states. However, I do take your point in that DoD and the MIC would lose their absolute shite.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:19 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
In no universe can our refusal to say we won't add Ukraine to NATO be viewed as anything but incendiary.
Not sure I agree with that. How or why should the United States make commitments on behalf of a separate sovereign state? It is an unreasonable demand, which is why Putin made it to begin with.
No self respecting sovereign state or entity would acquiesces to that type of demand.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:20 pm to Ag Zwin
This is nothing like the Cuban missile crisis.
We aren't parking nuclear armed missiles in the Ukraine, aiming them at Russia.
If Ukraine joins NATO, that is no military threat to Russia at all. NATO does not use its military force to expand and take over other sovereign nations.
OP is just a Russia apologist.
We aren't parking nuclear armed missiles in the Ukraine, aiming them at Russia.
If Ukraine joins NATO, that is no military threat to Russia at all. NATO does not use its military force to expand and take over other sovereign nations.
OP is just a Russia apologist.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:22 pm to TBoy
quote:Well this is just a painfully stupid assertion.
If Ukraine joins NATO, that is no military threat to Russia at all
quote:
NATO does not use its military force to expand and take over other sovereign nations.
LOL........Wut???
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:22 pm to Ag Zwin
quote:
Fine. Doesn't mean we have to accept them and all the risks it entails.
True, though we can’t agree to that under threat.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:24 pm to Ag Zwin
quote:
I have a Son in the military in 17 months
I agree with you 100%. I do not want to see woman and children killed. I am sick and tired of it. We have no interest over their. If I had children at this age I would be concerned also. I was in Iraq from 2005 to beginning of 2007. There was a lot of innocent women and children killed over a country that had absolutely nothing to do with 9-11.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:25 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
Well this is just a painfully stupid assertion.
Not at all. When has NATO used military force to take over another sovereign nation? Never. All that NATO membership gets in this kind of context is military protection that no other nation (like Russia) will use military force to try to conquer you.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:25 pm to TBoy
quote:
This is nothing like the Cuban missile crisis.
Considering we’ve repeatedly made it clear we aren’t putting troops in Ukraine, even if they do invade, automatically makes the CMC comparison ridiculous.
Though I would say it’s fair to say Russia does have legitimate security concerns here that we’ve foolishly ignored. I mean why do we need former Soviet bloc states in NATO for anyway other than to just be dicks?
This post was edited on 2/11/22 at 2:28 pm
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:27 pm to TBoy
quote:LOL..........talk about trying to slice thinly.
Not at all. When has NATO used military force to take over another sovereign nation? Never.
Troops from NATO nations have been roughly 1000% more time operating in foreign nations near Russian borders than the other way around.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:27 pm to TBoy
Gadaffi and Saddam wish you were right
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:28 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
I mean why do we need former Soviet bloc states in NATO for anyway other than to just be dicks?
Need? They applied and asked to be in because they want protection from Russia. Now NATO has to reject applicant merely because they were ruled from Moscow for a large portion of the 20th Century?
This post was edited on 2/11/22 at 2:30 pm
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:30 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Now NATO has to reject applicant merely because they were ruled from Moscow for a large portion of the 20th Century?
No, reject them because adding them creates more security issues than it solves.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:31 pm to Draconian Sanctions
NATO is founded on the principle of collective defense. An attack on a NATO nation is an attack on all NATO nations.
I understand why for Soviet Bloc countries want to join NATO. It's because they don't trust that Russia won't use military force to conquer them a second time.
Russia wants to re-conquer some of the former Soviet Bloc nations. That is a threat to the world. Saying that the Western Nations won't allow Russia to conquer its neighbors is not an aggressive act toward Russia. Any argument that it is aggressive is ridiculous.
So the way to make peace with Russia is to let it conquer other nations? bullshite. That's Neville Chamberlain level folly.
I understand why for Soviet Bloc countries want to join NATO. It's because they don't trust that Russia won't use military force to conquer them a second time.
Russia wants to re-conquer some of the former Soviet Bloc nations. That is a threat to the world. Saying that the Western Nations won't allow Russia to conquer its neighbors is not an aggressive act toward Russia. Any argument that it is aggressive is ridiculous.
So the way to make peace with Russia is to let it conquer other nations? bullshite. That's Neville Chamberlain level folly.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:31 pm to lsuguy84
First, if they are a sovereign nation free to make choices then why did biden make them fire the AG for investigating his sons company???
Second, why do we have a say, the US or Europe, what Russia does or doesnt do. If they wanted to defend Ukraine they should have made them part of NATO, they arent so its not our business.
Third, exactly as I feared. biden made a mess of Afghanistan so now he will OVERREACT when it comes to Ukraine. You know that when friggin Russia and Ukraine are telling the US to stfu, and Europe has locked him out of talks.
Building tent cities for US citizens who are refugees from Ukraine, in Poland, is a little overdramatic dont you think? Most expats are not destitute.
Second, why do we have a say, the US or Europe, what Russia does or doesnt do. If they wanted to defend Ukraine they should have made them part of NATO, they arent so its not our business.
Third, exactly as I feared. biden made a mess of Afghanistan so now he will OVERREACT when it comes to Ukraine. You know that when friggin Russia and Ukraine are telling the US to stfu, and Europe has locked him out of talks.
Building tent cities for US citizens who are refugees from Ukraine, in Poland, is a little overdramatic dont you think? Most expats are not destitute.
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:33 pm to TBoy
quote:
So the way to make peace with Russia is to let it conquer other nations?
There’s a middle ground between letting them join NATO vs allowing Russia to invade them.
If your assertions about NATO’s thought processes were so steadfast then why have we been holding up Ukraine’s application for 20 years?
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:34 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
No, reject them because adding them creates more security issues than it solves.
It doesn't though. There are (and have been) zero security issues that have arisen over Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia, or Montenegro joining NATO. All of those nations were either allied with the USSR, part of the USSR, or were Slavic parts of the former Yugoslavia.
The only actual issue is Ukraine, who has not been invited to join NATO. Ukraine is nowhere close to becoming a NATO member.
This post was edited on 2/11/22 at 2:39 pm
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:35 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
The only actual issue is Ukraine, who has neither applied
Wrong
Posted on 2/11/22 at 2:36 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
Wrong
Link? Ukraine applied for a Membership Action Plan in 2008, and did not receive one.
Since then Ukraine has effectively deteriorated. They are nowhere near joining the alliance.
This post was edited on 2/11/22 at 2:37 pm
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