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re: Why does our educational system glorify stem and 4 year degrees?
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:48 am to imjustafatkid
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:48 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
Slowflow represents the opinions of nearly no one on this site.
I thought the poli board loved IQ as a measuring stick
0
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:50 am to SlowFlowPro
You’d lose that bet. This isn’t the 80s. The type of modern child who would develop an interest in programming might be the last mfer you want crawling under your house fixing broken pipes.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Had he been raised in a different environment, he'd be your BIL.
and you're wrong. He is in his early 60s and he is dyslexic. It isn't because he is stupid but he can not read or write and his math skills are slim to none. He doesn't have education but he is more than capable of performing his job at high levels.
And before you say that he didn't have the support group for dyslexics, he didn't. But he also isn't a smart man, he knows dirt and farms on the side.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:51 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
A lot of white collar people are hopeless when it comes to spatial sense or working with their hands.
Can you imagine if these kids who are sitting in class learning nothing had other options?
True! My youngest son has been addicted to computers since the first time he saw a video game. He has spent most of his adult life in front of monitor on a keyboard.
Has no interest nor ability in mechanical devices.
He called me because a pipe was leaking. I asked him the size of the pipe. I stopped at Lowes, picked up couple of fittings, and had it fixed in about twenty minutes. I tried to explain it to him. He said, Dad you know I have no interest in that.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:53 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
The type of modern child who would develop an interest in programming might be the last mfer you want crawling under your house fixing broken pipes.
Put up $5k as a contest and a programmer will become a plumber a hell of a lot faster than a plumber will become a programmer.
This is largely just resource devotion in our personal lives. The difference is that there are IQ requirements for certain levels. This myth that lower-level IQ jobs are somehow too difficult for higher-IQ people is just a silly fantasy.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:55 am to Warfarer
quote:
He is in his early 60s and he is dyslexic.
quote:
and you're wrong.
Sounds like I'm right.
quote:
It isn't because he is stupid
I literally said his IQ was above his job level.
His family failed him at an early developmental period by not properly addressing his LD.
I re-state:
quote:
Had he been raised in a different environment, he'd be your BIL.
quote:
But he also isn't a smart man,
quote:
It isn't because he is stupid
*ETA: let me also say these "Trade savants" are mostly older and you don't find them in younger people as often because of the very thing OP was bitching about: basic educational standards increasing. Schools catch these kids earlier and more often today, and they get a chance to fully develop as a person/student around their high intelligence. And, as a result of this, they don't end up in trades. I speculate it's a major reason why the population of high-level tradesmen has declined so much.
This post was edited on 2/24/24 at 10:01 am
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:55 am to RiverCityTider
Nothing wrong with STEM degrees. Engineers are essential to our society. Our problem is that we don't have enough and are in danger of falling behind other countries. Our advances in technology are driven by scientists and implemented by engineers.
On the other hand, we also need people with the skills to build such things. We need skilled tradespeople. My father was a tool and die maker. I am an engineer. I have great respect for what he did. If you ask an engineer if he values craftsmen or liberal arts majors it is an easy answer.
The point is we need both. They are a team in building this country.
What we don't need are more gender studies graduates.
On the other hand, we also need people with the skills to build such things. We need skilled tradespeople. My father was a tool and die maker. I am an engineer. I have great respect for what he did. If you ask an engineer if he values craftsmen or liberal arts majors it is an easy answer.
The point is we need both. They are a team in building this country.
What we don't need are more gender studies graduates.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:56 am to Gus007
quote:
He said, Dad you know I have no interest in that.
Again, resource allocation.
We can't all be SFP and be an expert on everything. Mortals, even smart ones, have to decide where to invest personal resources.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:57 am to Vacherie Saint
I'm serious guys. Unemployment and the unemployable leads to critical labor shortages and a lot of crime and misery.
A school should at least try to teach a kid how to survive.
All children should be taught basic math and civics and English. But no point in wasting their time on things they can't or won't learn.
A school should at least try to teach a kid how to survive.
All children should be taught basic math and civics and English. But no point in wasting their time on things they can't or won't learn.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 9:59 am to RiverCityTider
Because colleges and universities make a ton of money on quantities of students, not necessary qualities of students.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:01 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
Unemployment and the unemployable leads to critical labor shortages and a lot of crime and misery.
The populations engaging in crime aren't likely to devote any real investment in education regardless.
They're not likely to get real jobs until they're near unemployable also. They're not the types to go into trades (or be successful at them).
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:01 am to RiverCityTider
We’re not glorifying STEM. What are you smoking?
We aren’t producing nearly enough STEM grads.
We aren’t producing nearly enough STEM grads.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:02 am to SlowFlowPro
IQ means pretty much dick in the trades dude. I work with some of the smartest engineers in the country and they can’t even iron a shirt properly much less actually build anything they design. Meanwhile the recovering meth addict up the street just replaced my entire fuel delivery system on a 2015 diesel BMW in his garage.
A programmer can certainly “learn” a trade process, but executing it isn’t in the same skill set. And no one is saying plumbers can program. Jesus you are insufferable.
A programmer can certainly “learn” a trade process, but executing it isn’t in the same skill set. And no one is saying plumbers can program. Jesus you are insufferable.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:07 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
IQ means pretty much dick in the trades dude.
It matters, but since the population within the IQ requirements is so huge, it doesn't appear that way.
You're not going to find many 65-70 IQ people in the trades.
quote:
I work with some of the smartest engineers in the country and they can’t even iron a shirt properly much less actually build anything they design.
Again, it's just a matter of devoting resources.
It's just like with things that we pay others to do. I can mow my lawn, but it's more efficient for me to use that time elsewhere.
There aren't very many things that can't be mastered later in life. Learning a different language does seem to have an expiration date.
Otherwise, it's just a matter of devoting time to the learning curve (assuming you meet the min IQ).
quote:
A programmer can certainly “learn” a trade process, but executing it isn’t in the same skill set.
100% is. It just requires putting in time to build up the skillset, like anything else.
People frame this conversation incorrectly, where they compare a person at an expert level of mastery to a complete novice, and try to spike the football and claim it would be impossible for the novice to develop. It completely ignores how that expert level person was also as clueless and at the same novice stage, in the past.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:09 am to SlowFlowPro
They did for generations. The issue isn’t low income, mid IQ kids shunning trades for crime, as much as it’s a society that shuns trade education, rewards laziness, is soft in crime, and imports trades people from Honduras.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:09 am to the808bass
quote:
We’re not glorifying STEM. What are you smoking?
We aren’t producing nearly enough STEM grads.
This is the bimonthly "trades" thread. Usually it's on the OT.
I'm curious how long it is until people talk about someone in their lives who built a trade business and is now a millionaire, ignoring the fact that their example had the aptitude to build all sorts of businesses, and that skill (and not the trade skill) + intelligence is why they were rich. They completely gloss over how this is not possible for the vast majority of people in trades (it's not stated to be an insult to those people).
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:10 am to RiverCityTider
Many STEM fields pay very well and have good job prospects. That’s probably why it’s valued. Most fields with challenging training tend to pay better. I noticed you skipped right over every engineering degree.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:10 am to RiverCityTider
My bigger question is why do people let this bother them?
Let those with an aptitude for plumbing, carpentry, etc., find it.
Regarding STEM, the world continues to become more reliant on technology and those with specialized training in this field are needed to keep up.
These technological advances also mean more regulation and laws are needed, which means the need for professions like the lawyers will continue to rise.
Cap that off with the need for humanities in any civilized society and you have a reason to continue funding with liberal arts programs.
Let those with an aptitude for plumbing, carpentry, etc., find it.
Regarding STEM, the world continues to become more reliant on technology and those with specialized training in this field are needed to keep up.
These technological advances also mean more regulation and laws are needed, which means the need for professions like the lawyers will continue to rise.
Cap that off with the need for humanities in any civilized society and you have a reason to continue funding with liberal arts programs.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:12 am to Vacherie Saint
quote:
They did for generations. The issue isn’t low income, mid IQ kids shunning trades for crime, as much as it’s a society that shuns trade education, rewards laziness, is soft in crime, and imports trades people from Honduras.
The pathologies of our lower class have literally nothing to do with economic opportunities in trades.
Just look at the Rust Belt and how the populations who thrived on inefficient and overpaid lower-level manufacturing have refused to adapt just a little bit and scale up one cohort to trades. All the economic misery (and social pathologies that develop as a result) has nothing to do with the lack of opportunity for trade work. It's there and they have rejected it for disability and drugs.
Posted on 2/24/24 at 10:12 am to SlowFlowPro
You are putting everything on intellect, which isn’t surprising. Next time your AC craps out, read a book and fix it. Report back and let us know how that works out, ladyfingers.
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