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re: Why did the soviet union collapse?
Posted on 6/25/21 at 7:47 pm to bdavids09
Posted on 6/25/21 at 7:47 pm to bdavids09
They tried to match and outmatch the United States in an Arms Race. Both countries were going way fast on a super speedway at 200 miles per hour. But due to different economic and political systems and ideology, the United States had the gas pedal pushed maybe 1/4 of the way down to maintain that speed, while the Soviet Union had their gas pedal mashed to the floorboard and their engine was revving way past redline. Their engine blew up, economically speaking.
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Posted on 6/25/21 at 8:31 pm to FlyingTiger1955
quote:
Gorbachev was not willing to kill his people in order to stay in power. If the same circumstances faced Lenin, Stalin or other old Bolsheviks, they would have had no problem killing millions in order to stay in power.
Agreed
quote:
We must not forget that if we allow the Communists like Bernie Sanders and AOC to gain power.
Bernie will do whatever gets him a dollar. But I can see someone like AOC being genuinely dangerous. She may be vapid, but i can see her going mad on us.
This post was edited on 6/25/21 at 8:32 pm
Posted on 6/25/21 at 9:10 pm to A Smoke Break
quote:
Tell that to china
China already knows. That is why they allow certain elements of capitalism in their economic system. China's political system and economic system are not as intergrated between each other as the U.S.S.R.'s were. Plus no one is having an arms race with China right now.
Posted on 6/25/21 at 9:23 pm to 88Wildcat
China also felt slighted by the USSR at one point, and Mao Zedong actually used that to try to declare that he was the real leader of the Communist world.
Posted on 6/25/21 at 9:25 pm to Zappas Stache
quote:
Authoritarian Capitalist system
So fascism?
Posted on 6/25/21 at 9:30 pm to A Smoke Break
quote:
quote:
Socialism does not grow wealth.
Tell that to china
Does China really grow wealth outside of the government and a small handful of selected people.
All on the back of modern day slave labor.
But don’t worry. We are going to get that form of wealth creation here very soon.
Our “leaders” don’t view China as an oppressive totalitarian state, they view it as the model to be implemented here.
Posted on 6/25/21 at 9:38 pm to bdavids09
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:00 pm to Taxing Authority
Such a light weight comment. China still hasn't learned after a few thousand years you can't sustain power and growth when you oppress the masses. They are extracting all of the producer surplus from their citizens and that is not sustainable.
To stay on topic I've read about it before but didn't demographics play into the USSRs collapse?
To stay on topic I've read about it before but didn't demographics play into the USSRs collapse?
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:09 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
China survived almost certain doom in the 70’s and 80’s by adopting a significant number capitalist ideas and principles. They are more “single party” government than they are pure communists.
Plus, China figured out that they could take advantage of “free trade” by fixing their currency and using the equivalent of slave labor to undercut production of damn near everything in the world. The money from cheap goods then flowed in to bolster their government machine and provide the funds to buy off influential people across the globe.
It’s pretty damn smart …. and inherently evil.
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:16 pm to wutangfinancial
The truth is that a command economy that can produce tanks nukes, and little else, doesn't hold up to an explosive growth in the standard of living against a foe who can reasonably compete in the tanks and nukes column.
The USSR tried half hearted turns towards capitalism for temporary upticks, when it was at its most endangered economically--and abandoned them as soon as possible thereafter, and decried those who temporarily profited from it as enemies of the state to be liquidated.
They tried the same pivot again later, but never as heavily or as successfully as with the NEP. The smarter heads in Beijing, though, emerged from the crisis of the death of Mao and the shattering consequences of the Cultural Revolution, realizing that when Mao had died, they had essentially just recast the old Emperor in Mao's clothing despite 30 years of state socialism-- and that was as dangerous as anything, as a Red Emperor would be as liable to lose the Mandate of Heaven as an inherited Emperor. They looked to the NEP to show a way to actually transform China, and embraced its market tolerartions, without embracing the freedoms that are the underpinning of free market sustainability.
Throw in a baseline where 'not starving anyone' was economic prosperity, and its pretty easy to look like you've re-invented the wheel.
The USSR tried half hearted turns towards capitalism for temporary upticks, when it was at its most endangered economically--and abandoned them as soon as possible thereafter, and decried those who temporarily profited from it as enemies of the state to be liquidated.
They tried the same pivot again later, but never as heavily or as successfully as with the NEP. The smarter heads in Beijing, though, emerged from the crisis of the death of Mao and the shattering consequences of the Cultural Revolution, realizing that when Mao had died, they had essentially just recast the old Emperor in Mao's clothing despite 30 years of state socialism-- and that was as dangerous as anything, as a Red Emperor would be as liable to lose the Mandate of Heaven as an inherited Emperor. They looked to the NEP to show a way to actually transform China, and embraced its market tolerartions, without embracing the freedoms that are the underpinning of free market sustainability.
Throw in a baseline where 'not starving anyone' was economic prosperity, and its pretty easy to look like you've re-invented the wheel.
This post was edited on 6/25/21 at 10:18 pm
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:18 pm to jlovel7
quote:
Their brand of communism comes on the back of Capitalism.
Correct me if I'm wrong but real Marxists believe that socialism can be achieved at peak wealth of a capitalist system. So it's the same theory.
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:21 pm to wutangfinancial
quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but real Marxists believe that socialism can be achieved at peak wealth of a capitalist system. So it's the same theory.
Nope. Marx himself stated that capitalism had to exhaust its capacity for growth, first.
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:22 pm to BoardReader
That's what peak wealth is right?
Disclaimer: I think the economic theories are pointless when talking about history and the present
Disclaimer: I think the economic theories are pointless when talking about history and the present
This post was edited on 6/25/21 at 10:24 pm
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:27 pm to wutangfinancial
quote:
That's what peak wealth is right?
Not really, no. A genesis point, stagnation has to occur first, and regression from the peak that becomes notable to the masses-- not only would capitalism fail to address unmet future needs by being unable to grow further to meet them, it has to start moving back from the needs it already fulfilled, to show a failure, to make the Marxist alternative more desirable.
Capitalism has to start falling apart, for the Marxist, first.
This post was edited on 6/25/21 at 10:28 pm
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:35 pm to bdavids09
quote:
After there defeat of Nazi Germany they were a world superpower until there collapse but why have other communist countries like china not collapsed?
The main reason for the Soviet collapsed was nationalism. Nationalism in the Satellite countries nationalism in the Republics.
China has transitioned to efficient production, the Soviet Union was more inefficient than advertised.
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:43 pm to BoardReader
Seems rather convenient 
Posted on 6/26/21 at 9:13 am to CarrolltonTiger
How state controlled was the imperial economy?
Posted on 6/26/21 at 9:26 am to bdavids09
Many are pointing to the arms race which is part of it.
The Soviets were defeated by a combination of things lead primarily by Reagan, Thatcher, and St. Pope John Paul II. Those three worked together to contain and them undermine the socialist Soviets.
The USSR also differed from China in that they were trying to rule very dis tin the cultural people all with one method. China is much more homogenous.
Another very big point is when the Soviet Union went down it descended into a chaotic state and the Chinese people saw that. The Chinese were on a very similar path to throwing off the oppressive chains of socialist rule when they saw the rough transition of the USSR and the people sort of tapped the brakes. The CCP also saw what was happening and “opened” things a bit economically to enough people that the Chinese freedom seekers were drowned out.
The Soviets were defeated by a combination of things lead primarily by Reagan, Thatcher, and St. Pope John Paul II. Those three worked together to contain and them undermine the socialist Soviets.
The USSR also differed from China in that they were trying to rule very dis tin the cultural people all with one method. China is much more homogenous.
Another very big point is when the Soviet Union went down it descended into a chaotic state and the Chinese people saw that. The Chinese were on a very similar path to throwing off the oppressive chains of socialist rule when they saw the rough transition of the USSR and the people sort of tapped the brakes. The CCP also saw what was happening and “opened” things a bit economically to enough people that the Chinese freedom seekers were drowned out.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 9:30 am to bdavids09
quote:What natural (and otherwise) resources does Russia possess? The Chinese are among the most industrious people on earth. The govt has figured out how to beat capitalist countries at their own game.
After there defeat of Nazi Germany they were a world superpower until there collapse but why have other communist countries like china not collapsed?
Posted on 6/26/21 at 9:32 am to bdavids09
China allows owners of private businesses to become rich. They have tons of millionaires now. There are now over 400 golf courses in China.
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