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Posted on 8/26/26 at 10:46 am to AlwysATgr
quote:
"Firstborn" as used in Col. 1:15 means preeminent.
That’s one meaning, which orthodox Christianity settled on. There’s another meaning too.
Posted on 8/26/26 at 10:49 am to Stinger_1066
quote:
Or are modern Jews condemned to hell just like their Muslim counterparts?
Does it not say in the old testament that the god of Abraham foretold that Ishmael's descendants would be too numerous to count, and that the god of Abraham blessed Ishmael and made for him a "great" nation?
Yes it does.
If you believe the old testament, then you have to believe that the god of the Muslims is the god of Abraham, and also the god of the Jews. And if you believe that the god of the Jews is the Christian god, then the Christian god is also the god of the Muslims.
If Jews reject the Jesus the Messiah, then yes, they too are condemned.
Beyond that, you have confused a race (descendants of Ishmael) with a religion (Islam). The supreme being of Islam =/= the God of the Bible who made Ishamel into a great nation regardless of how many times Mo, 747, et al. assert to the contrary.
"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Cor. 8:5-6.
Posted on 8/26/26 at 10:52 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
That’s one meaning, which orthodox Christianity settled on. There’s another meaning too.
What's prototokos mean to Muslims then?
This post was edited on 8/26/26 at 10:59 am
Posted on 8/26/26 at 10:56 am to AlwysATgr
quote:
What's prototokosmean to Muslims then?
Why would it matter? They believe that Jesus was just a prophet and that the New Testament was corrupted.
Posted on 8/26/26 at 11:00 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
They believe that Jesus was just a prophet and that the New Testament was corrupted.
So maybe we aren't all "branches on the same tree" after all. Ta-da!
Glad we cleared that up.
Posted on 8/26/26 at 11:01 am to AlwysATgr
quote:
So maybe we aren't all "branches on the same tree" after all. Ta-da! Glad we cleared that up.
Are you just deliberately being obtuse? It’s kind of obnoxious. Do you believe that Jews worship a different god than you?
Posted on 8/26/26 at 11:02 am to Jbird
How can this fa ggot still be a viable candidate? Has Texas really become that pussified?
Posted on 8/26/26 at 3:32 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Are you just deliberately being obtuse? It’s kind of obnoxious. Do you believe that Jews worship a different god than you?
Obtuse?
You asserted multiple times on p. 1 that we (Evangelical believers in Jesus) worship the same god as Islam. We don't. Is there anything "obtuse" about that?
You asserted just above that: "They believe that Jesus was just a prophet and that the New Testament was corrupted." We don't. There's a fundamental difference. Not the same. For example, we believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God THE Son (do they?) who DIED via crucifixion as a once-for-all perfect atonement for our sins (do they?) and God gave proof by raising Him from the dead (do they?).
Is there anything "obtuse" about that? There are foundational and fundamental differences between Biblical Christianity and Islam.
In our view, Islam is a false, dark, evil, oppressive, violent religion started by a violent, pedophile, pervert. It will be a glorious day on this planet when the living God blots out the very memory of Islam.
Obtuse? Your accusation is your confession.
Regarding your second question, why don't you tell us whom you consider the "Jews" to be, what "worship" is, and what "god" they worship lest you accuse someone of being "obtuse."
Posted on 8/26/26 at 5:22 pm to GatorOnAnIsland
quote:
preeminence in position
Put yourself in Arius’ shoes. It’s the late fourth century, Christianity just became legal in the empire, and Christianity is a loose confederation of cults who claim Jesus as their religious figure of importance. There’s no pope, and no inquisition to enforce a centralized doctrine, and there isn’t yet even an orthodox Catholic doctrine.
Some Christians believed Jesus was a celestial being who was never on earth yet in the flesh but who was going to come one day. Some Christians believed Jesus was Yahweh or the angle of Yahweh of the Jewish scripture. Some Christians believed Jesus was a man and was the son of another god disconnected from Judaism entirely. Some Christians believed Jesus came to earth but only appeared to be a man and taught the secrets of salvation. Some Christians believed Jesus was the best and final prophet but was only a man. A lot of people don’t realize this but this is documented fact.
So Arius reads it in Greek - translated most literally as first born of all creation. Arius probably took it at fact value in the place meaning. The Greek “Prototokos” literally is “first to come forth/born”. In verse 18, Jesus is described as first born to come from the dead. The context is clear - Jesus was the very first to be resurrected… the first of many brethren. If Arius applies the same consistency to verse 15 as he does to verse 18, he would read that Jesus is in the category of created things. Whether he is “preeminent” or whether he is first born, he is still a part of what was created just like he was also in the category of being dead. Arius could take it literally as in Jesus is a creature of creation and first to be created, or he is a creature of creation and is most important. Either way, this verse in Colossians indicates Jesus was created. Arius didn’t have angry guys on message boards to set him straight.
quote:
Oh yes, heretics love to take scripture out of context to make “their” point which goes against all other scripture when read out of context.
It takes courage to be honest enough with yourself to admit that someone could read that text and come to a different conclusion that what was ingrained into your head by someone else.
quote:
Scripture never contradicts itself.
You sound like maybe you are serious and not a troll. Take a look at Mark and Luke and read them in parallel. Read the story of when Jesus sends out his disciples to heal the sick and so forth. Does he tell them to take a staff, or does he tell them to not take a staff on their trip?
quote:
He has always existed… John 1:1-5 , 1 John 1:1- 4. Phil 2:6-8, Col 2:9, HEB 1:2, Gen 1, John 8:58 and more..
None of those mention Jesus always existing. In the beginning is maybe the closest but that’s abstract and up for interpretation. Philo of Alexandria wrote that the Logos was the eldest of all that God had created, and through the Logos everything else was created. It’s plausible that this was the thought process of the gospel authors and Paul and Hebrews and so forth. Don’t pretend that you positively know that which you do not know and can’t possibly know because no one can. I personally am convinced that this was the most likely thought process - the thoughts of Philo - that Jesus was created though he was the first to be created and then became an instrument of God to create everything else.
quote:
Taking Scripture out of context.
You got it arse backwards.
quote:
Did you also go to WOKE PUSA Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary as did Talarico ?
I’m an atheist.
Posted on 8/26/26 at 5:41 pm to International_Aggie
quote:
"Firstborn" is a title of authority and ownership, not a matter of sequence.
It literally is based on a sequence. First to come forth. Prototokos. If you want to interpret it figuratively, as in “most important” or some such thing, it still puts Jesus in the category of created beings. Jesus is the “preeminent one” of creation. Still created and a part of what was created.
quote:
Why don't you finish the rest of the verse?
Oh boy
quote:quote:If he is a created being, how can he create all things? Likewise, if he is created, how could he exist before all creation?
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Did you read the part about in heaven and on earth? Perhaps just maybe is there a possibility that all things in heaven and on earth don’t necessarily mean everything in existence?
It was already a part of some Jewish lore before the “time of Jesus” that God created the Logos and then through the Logos everything else was created. Basically there were Jews who were Christians before “Jesus” ministry who didn’t even realize it. Arius was from this same area (where Philo was from) and knew of that Jewish theology.
I am not arguing whether Jesus was created or is co-eternal to God/the Father. I’m an atheist. I know for certain Jesus was being worshipped before the time of the 30s AD when the gospels tell stories of his ministry. I think it is unlikely there was even a single man “Jesus” on which the gospels were based. Much of the Jesus story is based on the real historical person John the Baptizer.
What I’m arguing is that Arius and his followers had good reasons to believe what they did based on the text of the biblical scriptures.
Arius would have read that Jesus was the first to come forth of the creation. That Jesus was begotten of the Father. Fathers beget sons - the son comes from a father and the father exists before any son can exist. I think you have to admit it is reasonable for someone to conclude from what was available to him that there was a time long ago before creation of all things in heaven and on earth when Jesus was not.
Posted on 8/26/26 at 5:50 pm to Jbird
My savior wasn’t a pedophile.
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