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Message
re: We see the results of our revolving door of “justice” every day. Meanwhile…
Posted on 4/13/26 at 2:39 pm to djsdawg
Posted on 4/13/26 at 2:39 pm to djsdawg
quote:
You didn’t vote for Trump.
And? My electors voted for Trump and he’s the president.
quote:
Everyone cannot be fixed. Absurd for you to insinuate otherwise, especially after you recently had a 20 page thread crying about one of your failures.
Someone getting arrested is not my failure. This whole post is an emotional straw man. Instead of discussing actual policies, you want to make this personal and hold me personally responsible for the actions of others while also chastising me for understanding that recidivism is a failure of the state to rehabilitate.
3
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:27 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:There are many.
Be specific.
What programs do we have for rehabilitating convicted criminals?
Educational programs like GED and Adult Basic Education; college courses; literacy programs; vocational trainings for trades, certifications, and so on. There are substance abuse treatments for alcoholism and drug addictions. There are mental health services. There are anger management and other therapy-related services offered. There are faith-based programs like Bible studies. There are life skills and re-entry programs to help inmates acquire jobs, balance budgets, and provide housing assistance.
The list goes on and on, but modern penitentiaries are more focused on keeping inmates busy bettering themselves for society and for themselves rather than punishing them in a chain gang or dungeon like they used to (and I'm not advocating for a return to chain gangs, BTW).
Even the names "penitentiary" and "correctional facility" reflect a purpose of "penitence" (reformation and turning from sin/error) and "correction".
This post was edited on 4/13/26 at 3:39 pm
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:32 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
also chastising me for understanding that recidivism is a failure of the state to rehabilitate.
Yep, no blame on the actual criminal it's only a failure of the state. We could never place any blame on the criminal
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:36 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
And? My electors voted for Trump and he’s the president.
Your vote is relevant. Your electors vote is irrelevant
quote:
This whole post is an emotional straw man. Instead of discussing actual policies
This is as close to a slow deflection as it gets
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:38 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
understanding that recidivism is a failure of the state to rehabilitate.
I am not going to blame the state for failing to do the impossible.
I blame it for releasing these dangers back into society
This post was edited on 4/13/26 at 3:40 pm
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:41 pm to djsdawg
quote:
after you recently had a 20 page thread crying about one of your failures.
Whatever happened to him?
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:44 pm to djsdawg
quote:
Your vote is relevant. Your electors vote is irrelevant
You just said that "Liberals advocate for soft on crime politics with their votes" is my fault because I didn't vote for Trump.
That is literally what you posted.
Then you fussed at me for stating that the state fails to rehabilitate offenders who are in the care, custody and control of the state for varying periods of time.
Pick a lane.
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:45 pm to djsdawg
quote:
I am not going to blame the state for failing to do the impossible.
You think everyone who commits a crime is destined to continue committing crimes no matter what? What are you even claiming?
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:47 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
You just said that "Liberals advocate for soft on crime politics with their votes" is my fault because I didn't vote for Trump.
This is about your personal beliefs. You vote for liberal soft on crime policies. You choose to work with criminals. You want to be their savior.
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:50 pm to jchamil
quote:
Yep, no blame on the actual criminal it's only a failure of the state.
I'm posting about the state's failure to rehabilitate people in its care, custody and control. That failure is the person re-offending. You're saying the government has no responsibility to rehabilitate the people it detains. You believe the government has no responsibility to ensure the people it detains don't re-offend when the state releases them. We disagree there.
You seem to think institutionalizing people who have demonstrated that don't possess the skills necessary to be productive members of society magically provides them with the skills necessary to become productive members of society.
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:54 pm to djsdawg
quote:
This is about your personal beliefs. You vote for liberal soft on crime policies.
What makes you think I vote for soft on crime policies in a sate with an exceedingly high incarceration rate? What evidence informed your statement? It looks like a purely emotional assumption.
quote:
You choose to work with criminals
You choose to complain about them from behind your keyboard.
quote:Another emotional straw man that has nothing to do with the discussion. You're just insulting me because it's easier than trying to make sense.
You want to be their savior.
Posted on 4/13/26 at 3:59 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
You're saying the government has no responsibility to rehabilitate the people it detains
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. The government can only do so much to rehabilitate people who have no desire or incentive to be rehabilitated.
quote:
You believe the government has no responsibility to ensure the people it detains don't re-offend when the state releases them.
The government has great responsibility. If they are seeing incredibly high rates of recidivism for certain crimes or criminals, then those individuals clearly require longer sentences or greater monitoring post release.
quote:
You seem to think institutionalizing people who have demonstrated that don't possess the skills necessary to be productive members of society magically provides them with the skills necessary to become productive members of society.
Who said anything about making them productive members of society? They aren’t productive members of society, they don’t want to be or cannot be. The idea is to REMOVE those people from society so they can no longer harass the people trying to be productive and destroy public spaces and resources.
This post was edited on 4/13/26 at 4:00 pm
Posted on 4/13/26 at 4:15 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
What makes you think I vote for soft on crime policies in a sate with an exceedingly high incarceration rate? What evidence informed your statement? I
We've read your numerous posts on here
Posted on 4/13/26 at 4:26 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
What makes you think I vote for soft on crime policies in a sate with an exceedingly high incarceration rate
You vote blue.
quote:
You choose to complain about them from behind your keyboard.
Keeping dangerous criminals far away from me and mine is smart. Liberals would be wise to do the same.
Posted on 4/13/26 at 6:04 pm to djsdawg
quote:
Just a single murder/rape/assault prevented proves the point.
Do you have a documented case of one?
Posted on 4/13/26 at 6:32 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
There are many.
The numbers I found say that we spend about $80 Billion a year on prisons.
And 4% of that budget goes into rehabilitation efforts.
Here's what else I found:
The educational and job training programs you mentioned have almost no effect on reducing recidivism.
The structured counseling, cognitive behavioral therapy, substance abuse treatment, and other programs designed to teach impulse control and decision making skills reduce recidivism by a significant amount...in some cases, by half, on average, by 25-30%
In contrast to what you claimed, the programs are underfunded and inconsistently implemented prison to prison and state to state.
The best results happen when the in-prison programs are paired with re-entry and community support programs.
I ALSO found studies that show that a million dollars worth of additional incarceration would prevent 25 new crimes.
A million dollars worth of the most effective rehabilitation programs would prevent 200 new crimes. According to the data, at least.
Yeah, it's almost 10 times as effective at preventing new crimes, which is what everyone here claims to want.
And this is the litmus test. Frank Turek gets to a certain point in debating with an atheist who keeps pivoting and moving the goalposts, and then he asks him or her, "If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" If the answer is anything but, "yes," then you know that belief isn't the problem...rebellion is.
And the same with this.
Anybody who still objects to rehabilitation in prisons—and in fact, anybody who objects to INCREASING rehabilitation efforts far above what it is now—does not really care about preventing future crimes and making society safer, as they claim.
It's about satisfying the emotional desire for revenge.
And don't give me, "I don't believe it, the data isn't correct," on two counts.
1. What is your basis for denying the data other than you just don't want it to be true? Do you have conflicting data?
2. Let's say that the studies are overstating the case. Let's say that they are only five times more effective at preventing recidivism as extra incarceration time. Let's say that they are only 2.5 times more effective.
You (not you personally, the royal you) are still a raging hypocrite if you object to it if you have sat here all day claiming that what you care about is making society safer.
(And this is for you personally) your theology is obviously flawed on this. I've asked you now 4-5 times about how David and Moses and Paul prove that your interpretation is flawed, yet you continue to not address it.
Really? You're going to keep saying things like you've been saying and just ignore it when I ask about those three?
Posted on 4/13/26 at 7:01 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
The structured counseling, cognitive behavioral therapy, substance abuse treatment, and other programs designed to teach impulse control and decision making skills reduce recidivism by a significant amount...in some cases, by half, on average, by 25-30%
Agreed they are worthwhile and should be expanded upon.
That said, the current leftist position is let people out before they even begin these efforts.
I'm all for my tax dollars going to keeping youths in separate lockup until they complete these courses.
I do want them to succeed, letting them out quickly or throwing them in general population only puts themselves and others at risk.
Posted on 4/13/26 at 7:35 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
Do you have a documented case of one?
Many women have avoided an assault because that dangerous person was behind bars, much to the chagrin of liberals.
Posted on 4/13/26 at 9:40 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:Yep, it's not a lot, but it's still a commonality.
The numbers I found say that we spend about $80 Billion a year on prisons.
And 4% of that budget goes into rehabilitation efforts.
quote:OK. I'm not advocating for these programs. I'm arguing that the system is primarily focused on rehab for criminals rather than justice for their victims.
Here's what else I found:
The educational and job training programs you mentioned have almost no effect on reducing recidivism.
quote:I didn't say they are consistently well-funded and implemented. You asked for an example of a specific program that is focused on rehab and I have you several examples.
Sure, which is a good thing for those who don't deserve the death penalty.
[quote]In contrast to what you claimed, the programs are underfunded and inconsistently implemented prison to prison and state to state.
quote:That's nice, but I'm not talking about crime prevention at all. I'm talking about justice for crimes already committed.
I ALSO found studies that show that a million dollars worth of additional incarceration would prevent 25 new crimes.
A million dollars worth of the most effective rehabilitation programs would prevent 200 new crimes. According to the data, at least.
Yeah, it's almost 10 times as effective at preventing new crimes, which is what everyone here claims to want.
quote:I think you are missing my argument. I'm not completely against rehab efforts, but I'm against the notion that criminals merely need rehabilitation rather than justice. It isn't merely about preventing crime, either. It's about committing to justice, which includes the death penalty, according to God's word.
And this is the litmus test. Frank Turek gets to a certain point in debating with an atheist who keeps pivoting and moving the goalposts, and then he asks him or her, "If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" If the answer is anything but, "yes," then you know that belief isn't the problem...rebellion is.
And the same with this.
Anybody who still objects to rehabilitation in prisons—and in fact, anybody who objects to INCREASING rehabilitation efforts far above what it is now—does not really care about preventing future crimes and making society safer, as they claim.
quote:Not for me.
It's about satisfying the emotional desire for revenge.
quote:I'm not denying the data. I'm not arguing for or against rehab in totality. I'm arguing that we need to pursue the death penalty for serious crimes like murder and rape.
And don't give me, "I don't believe it, the data isn't correct," on two counts.
quote:Making society safer can happen in many ways. I believe we have an obligation to use the death penalty for certain crimes as a matter of justice. If that also makes society safer, then great, but even if it doesn't, it's still a just response to certain violent crimes.
You (not you personally, the royal you) are still a raging hypocrite if you object to it if you have sat here all day claiming that what you care about is making society safer.
quote:Perhaps you missed my prior post about that, so I'll quote my own words and link you to the post. I did miss at least one other post you made about this topic, so I'll go back and review it to see if there is anything else I need to say in response.
(And this is for you personally) your theology is obviously flawed on this. I've asked you now 4-5 times about how David and Moses and Paul prove that your interpretation is flawed, yet you continue to not address it.
Really? You're going to keep saying things like you've been saying and just ignore it when I ask about those three?
Pharaoh was going to put him to death for his crime, so Moses fled Egypt to escape the death penalty (Ex. 2:15).
David was certainly was a murderer, but as the king, there was no higher civil authority to hold him accountable. God held him accountable, though, by killing his son and create strife in his household after him.
Paul was complicit in the killing of Christians, and from the Roman standpoint, that may have been considered unlawful killing and even murder, but they were inconsistent in how they prosecuted such crimes. However, if he was convicted of murder, he would have been judged as a murderer under the Roman civil law. It should be noted that even Paul argued at trial that he was innocent of the charges laid against him, but that if he had done anything worthy of the death penalty, he wouldn't fight it: "If then I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death. But if there is nothing to their charges against me, no one can give me up to them. I appeal to Caesar.” (Acts 25:11)
LINK
Posted on 4/13/26 at 9:46 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Reduced and/or disparate sentencing for violent crimes compared to non-violent crimes. Murderers being set free with what amounts to a slap on the wrist. Justice is not served consistently.quote:How?
Our justice system is more focused on rehabilitation than punishment.
For those that are sentenced, the death penalty is generally off the table as a punishment for serious violent crimes.
For those who are in jail, prisons are designed with programs and entertainments focused on relative comfort rather than discomfort, and rehabilitation rather than punishment.
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