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re: We love the first amendment don't we folks?

Posted on 6/15/19 at 2:28 pm to
Posted by SCLibertarian
Conway, South Carolina
Member since Aug 2013
41012 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 2:28 pm to
quote:

Burning a flag is a physical threat. 

This is the same argument SJW authoritarians use to try and censor speech with which they disagree. Burning a flag isn't a threat. And restricting the burning of a flag because of the reactions of third parties only incentivizes violent reaction to speech in hopes to get it banned.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
73224 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 2:29 pm to
Setting something on Fire in a public area is a safety risk

Period
Posted by PickupAutist
Member since Sep 2018
3038 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 2:34 pm to
Unpersoning people for wrongthink on twatter is ok, but let’s not touch the sacred right to burn the American flag. Libs are so morally broken and retarded.
Posted by JuiceTerry
Roond the Scheme
Member since Apr 2013
40868 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 2:36 pm to
Lashing out at random posters is the biggest tell that beefense also wants people jailed for burning the flag, and he's embarrased about it
Posted by JuiceTerry
Roond the Scheme
Member since Apr 2013
40868 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 2:38 pm to
quote:

but let’s not touch the sacred right to burn the American flag. Libs are so morally broken and retarded.
Because the small government conservative position is to pass an amendment against it
Posted by bmy
Nashville
Member since Oct 2007
48203 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 2:41 pm to
quote:

Setting something on Fire in a public area is a safety risk

Period




no more tiki torch marches, eh?
Posted by NIH
Member since Aug 2008
120154 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 2:43 pm to
Is that where the obese person died of a heart attack
Posted by bmy
Nashville
Member since Oct 2007
48203 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 2:44 pm to
quote:

Is that where the obese person died of a heart attack



it's where setting things on fire in public was free speech i think. i'm not really sure.
Posted by dawgfan24348
Member since Oct 2011
51578 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:22 pm to
quote:

Burning a flag is a physical threat

To whom?
quote:

has nothing to do with speech 


It's called symbolism so yes it has everything to do with free speech

quote:

Burning things in public are an obvious fire and safety risk


Oh for fricks sake the mental gymnastics you're putting on is outstanding
Posted by dawgfan24348
Member since Oct 2011
51578 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:25 pm to
While I certainly don't agree with Twitter's bullshite they are a private company. Unless you want them to be regulated as a public utility then they have every right to do it

Banning flag burning is straight up the government actively censoring people.
Posted by ThePTExperience1969
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Apr 2016
13360 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:33 pm to
quote:

This is the same argument SJW authoritarians use to try and censor speech with which they disagree. Burning a flag isn't a threat. And restricting the burning of a flag because of the reactions of third parties only incentivizes violent reaction to speech in hopes to get it banned.


I'd probably subscribe to Chief Justice Rehnquist's dissenting argument in Texas v. Johnson on how I'd approach something like flag burning and the constitutionality thereof next to Justice Black's literalist contention regarding the term "speech" which comes off pretty straight-forward from a textualist perspective:

quote:

The American flag, then, throughout more than 200 years of our history, has come to be the visible symbol embodying our Nation. It does not represent the views of any particular political party, and it does not represent any particular political philosophy. The flag is not simply another "idea" or "point of view" competing for recognition in the marketplace of ideas. Millions and millions of Americans regard it with an almost mystical reverence regardless of what sort of social, political, or philosophical beliefs they may have. I cannot agree that the First Amendment invalidates the Act of Congress, and the laws of 48 of the 50 States, which make criminal the public burning of the flag


quote:

But the Court insists that the Texas statute prohibiting the public burning of the American flag infringes on respondent Johnson's freedom of expression. Such freedom, of course, is not absolute...In Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 62 S.Ct. 766, 86 L.Ed. 1031 (1942), a unanimous Court said:
“Allowing the broadest scope to the language and purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment, it is well understood that the right of free speech is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances. There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or ‘fighting’ words—those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.”
The Court upheld Chaplinsky's conviction under a state statute that made it unlawful to “address any offensive, derisive or annoying word to any person who is lawfully in any street or other public place.” Chaplinsky had told a local marshal, “ ‘ “You are a God damned racketeer” and a “damned Fascist and the whole government of Rochester are Fascists or agents of Fascists.” ’ ”
Here it may equally well be said that the public burning of the American flag by Johnson was no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and at the same time it had a tendency to incite a breach of the peace...The same may be said of Johnson's public burning of the flag in this case; it obviously did convey Johnson's bitter dislike of his country. But his act, like Chaplinsky's provocative words, conveyed nothing that could not have been conveyed and was not conveyed just as forcefully in a dozen different ways. As with “fighting words,” so with flag burning, for purposes of the First Amendment: It is “no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and [is] of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from [it] is clearly outweighed” by the public interest in avoiding a probable breach of the peace....Thus, in no way can it be said that Texas is punishing him because his hearers—or any other group of people—were profoundly opposed to the message that he sought to convey. Such opposition is no proper basis for restricting speech or expression under the First Amendment. It was Johnson's use of this particular symbol, and not the idea that he sought to convey by it or by his many other expressions, for which he was punished.

Street v. New York Chief Justice Warren (big-time lib), in dissent, stated: “I believe that the States and Federal Government do have the power to protect the flag from acts of desecration and disgrace.... [I]t is difficult for me to imagine that, had the Court faced this issue, it would have concluded otherwise.” Justices Black and Fortas (LBJ appointee) also expressed their personal view that a prohibition on flag burning did not violate the Constitution. (Black, J., dissenting) (“It passes my belief that anything in the Federal Constitution bars a State from making the deliberate burning of the American Flag an offense”)(Fortas, J., dissenting) (“[T]he States and the Federal Government have the power to protect the flag from acts of desecration committed in public.... [T]he flag is a special kind of personality. Its use is traditionally and universally subject to special rules and regulation.... A person may ‘own’ a flag, but ownership is subject to special burdens and responsibilities. A flag may be property, in a sense; but it is property burdened with peculiar obligations and restrictions. Certainly ... these special conditions are not per se arbitrary or beyond governmental power under our Constitution”).


Justice Stevens' dissent (BIG-TIME LIB):

[quote]So it is with the American flag. It is more than a proud symbol of the courage, the determination, and the gifts of nature that transformed 13 fledgling Colonies into a world power. It is a symbol of freedom, of equal opportunity, of religious tolerance, and of good will for other peoples who share our aspirations. The symbol carries its message to dissidents both at home and abroad who may have no interest at all in our national unity or survival.
The value of the flag as a symbol cannot be measured.
Even so, I have no doubt that the interest in preserving that value for the future is both significant and legitimate. Conceivably that value will be enhanced by the Court's conclusion that our national commitment to free expression is so strong that even the United States as ultimate guarantor of that freedom is without power to prohibit the desecration of its unique symbol. But I am unpersuaded. The creation of a federal right to post bulletin boards and graffiti on the Washington Monument might enlarge the market for free expression, but at a cost I would not pay. Similarly, in my considered judgment, sanctioning the public desecration of the flag will tarnish its value—both for those who cherish the ideas for which it waves and for those who desire to don the robes of martyrdom by burning it. That tarnish is not justified by the trivial burden on free expression occasioned by requiring that an available, alternative mode of expression—including uttering words critical of the flag, see Street v. New York, 394 U.S. 576, 89 S.Ct. 1354, 22 L.Ed.2d 572 (1969)—be employed.


[quote]The case has nothing to do with “disagreeable ideas,”. It involves disagreeable conduct that, in my opinion, diminishes the value of an important national asset.

Checkmate, take that flag burners! Y'all may have beaten us in '89 but we're coming at you again!
Posted by dawgfan24348
Member since Oct 2011
51578 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:35 pm to
You can keep reposting the same stupid shite but in the end you're advocating for censorship via government. Congrats on the bullshite you try to pull to make yourself sound correct
Posted by NYNolaguy1
Member since May 2011
21698 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:38 pm to
quote:

So under your logic, burning a cross in a black pereon’s yard should be protected by first amendment?


I hope that you can see the difference between burning a cross in someones yard vs someone protesting by burning a flag.

One is directed at a person, the other a nation/govt.

That said I totally disagree with someone burning a flag, but I will defend their right to do so.
Posted by ThePTExperience1969
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Apr 2016
13360 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:41 pm to
quote:

Banning flag burning is straight up the government actively censoring people.


It's prohibiting conduct not censoring speech, the govt prohibits vandalism and tagging and people do that to express themselves all the time, I would assume that the AMERICAN FLAG is such a transcendental and special symbol and representation of THE COUNTRY that means so much to so many freedom-loving people around the globe including us here that I'm confident that a state or federal legislature banning its desecration should pass all the judicially-created tests regarding the constitutionality of a govt restriction without question. you CANNOT MEASURE the worth of the American flag, it inspires people and represents so much hell i'll go so far as argue it'd pass strict scrutiny that's how much the flag means around here.
Posted by dawgfan24348
Member since Oct 2011
51578 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:43 pm to
It's not vandalism if it's their own flag. And burning a flag is an act of symbolism which is also known as free speach
This post was edited on 6/15/19 at 3:45 pm
Posted by NYNolaguy1
Member since May 2011
21698 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:43 pm to
quote:

It's prohibiting conduct not censoring speech


The supreme court has ruled conduct can be legally interpreted as speech.

Theres a long list of court cases, but you can start with Tinker.
Posted by troyt37
Member since Mar 2008
14680 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:47 pm to
quote:

A weak argument is the one that says burning a flag should cost an American their freedom and/or their citizenship


But throw a man under the jail for keeping and bearing arms in any unapproved way, right Juicy?
Posted by ThePTExperience1969
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Apr 2016
13360 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:49 pm to
quote:

It's not vandalism if it's they're own flag. And burning a flag is an act of symbolism which is also known as free speach


1. It's as if you didn't read the dissenting arguments I presented for purposes of persuasion over THE AMERICAN FLAG THAT WE PLANTED ON IWO JIMA AFTER DEFEATING THE JAPS

2. Justice Stevens' dissent:

quote:

The Court is therefore quite wrong in blandly asserting that respondent “was prosecuted for his expression of dissatisfaction with the policies of this country, expression situated at the core of our First Amendment values.Respondent was prosecuted because of the method he chose to express his dissatisfaction with those policies. Had he chosen to spray-paint—or perhaps convey with a motion picture projector—his message of dissatisfaction on the facade of the Lincoln Memorial, there would be no question about the power of the Government to prohibit his means of expression. The prohibition would be supported by the legitimate interest in preserving the quality of an important national asset. Though the asset at stake in this case is intangible, given its unique value, the same interest supports a prohibition on the desecration of the American flag.*
The ideas of liberty and equality have been an irresistible force in motivating leaders like Patrick Henry, Susan B. Anthony, and Abraham Lincoln, schoolteachers like Nathan Hale and Booker T. Washington, the Philippine Scouts who fought at Bataan, and the soldiers who scaled the bluff at Omaha Beach. If those ideas are worth fighting for—and our history demonstrates that they are—it cannot be true that the flag that uniquely symbolizes their power is not itself worthy of protection from unnecessary desecration.


Posted by NYNolaguy1
Member since May 2011
21698 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:50 pm to
quote:

But throw a man under the jail for keeping and bearing arms in any unapproved way, right Juicy?


I am not even sure if you think felons should have guns.
Posted by JuiceTerry
Roond the Scheme
Member since Apr 2013
40868 posts
Posted on 6/15/19 at 3:51 pm to
quote:

the govt prohibits vandalism and tagging
Because that is doing harm to others' property

quote:

I would assume that the AMERICAN FLAG is such a transcendental and special symbol and representation of THE COUNTRY that means so much to so many freedom-loving people around the globe including us here that I'm confident that a state or federal legislature banning its desecration should pass all the judicially-created tests regarding the constitutionality of a govt restriction without question.
This proposal is a constitutional amendment

It wouldn't even make it out of the House

Bottom line.. Anyone who believes Americans should be jailed or lose citizenship for burning a flag really doesn't have a clue what the flag really represents

God Bless America
This post was edited on 6/15/19 at 4:18 pm
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