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Started By
Message
re: Unions, why do you dislike them?
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:20 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:20 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
You just aren't very smart if you don't believe an art or music teacher is as important at a school as a math teacher is.
The reality is we don't place ENOUGH emphasis on art and music.
The reality is we don't place ENOUGH emphasis on art and music.
1
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:22 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
Well in most free market societies you get paid via your merit. I’d rather the teachers that teach something that add value to society to get paid more, I don’t think that public schools would create a cap, I think most are smart enough to know about what a teacher is worth. I’m not completely bashing art, I think it’s valuable, beauty in things is very valuable, but I don’t think art teachers should get paid the same as a physics or trigonometry teacher.
The odd thing is that K-12 and Colleges are totally different.
You describe K-12. At the college level the math prof makes more than the art teacher.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:22 pm to Zach
quote:
The plant closed and the union workers all lost their jobs.
That's terrible but I can understand why they shut down.
For that kind of cash, you may as well leave high school and go into Manufacturing
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:25 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
You’ve given us both a meaningless, ill- defined gross generalization and a non-sequitur in one post. Good job!
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:31 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
I’m not completely bashing art, I think it’s valuable, beauty in things is very valuable, but I don’t think art teachers should get paid the same as a physics or trigonometry teacher.
It isn't about that
It's about teaching children freedom of expression and individualism. Math, art, science and music are all valuable tools in the development of children.
Now, if we are talking about getting degrees in art thinking you're going to make 100k then I will have a different perspective.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:31 pm to volod
quote:
Section 1
What about companies that abuse their hours with regards to time. Paying them 40 hrs/week salary when they work far more than that. You can make the negotiating argument : well you agreed to take the job. But that only highlights that private companies will compensate the least possible (well below market value) if they can.
Clear violation of wage and labor laws. You can only put someone on salary who has the ability to hire/fire someone (along with other requirements). The typical employee who is "abused" with this hypothetical wouldn't meet this criteria. Schlumberger got sued a few years ago in a class action for this exact violation.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:33 pm to VOR
Riddle me this
How many auto manufacturing jobs left this country due to unions?
How many auto manufacturing jobs left this country due to unions?
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:35 pm to volod
Unions are good for two kinds of workers
Low skilled, low educated workers who have little ambition and definitely need job protection.
Journeymen, such as in the construction trades.
Low skilled, low educated workers who have little ambition and definitely need job protection.
Journeymen, such as in the construction trades.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:35 pm to volod
I don’t know much about Unions. What I do know is helps some people and it is not beneficial to others who pay dues.
In many rural area’s it helps because people have to travel for work and it helps them find jobs. These jobs have much better benefits than most. People like my brother-in-law have higher paying jobs than 80% of the people in our county. I guy I went to high school makes around $300,000(with no college) in a county(voted over 80% Trump) where the median income per household is less than $32,000.
This is similar to a thread on the Mizzou board, because we are voting in November for right to work law.
Many people posted how they get no benefits from the dues they pay.
Each state is probably different because of certain laws and a rural area is different than other area’s.
Trying to say Unions have no benefit is wrong, but in some instances people get no benefit.
In many rural area’s it helps because people have to travel for work and it helps them find jobs. These jobs have much better benefits than most. People like my brother-in-law have higher paying jobs than 80% of the people in our county. I guy I went to high school makes around $300,000(with no college) in a county(voted over 80% Trump) where the median income per household is less than $32,000.
This is similar to a thread on the Mizzou board, because we are voting in November for right to work law.
Many people posted how they get no benefits from the dues they pay.
Each state is probably different because of certain laws and a rural area is different than other area’s.
Trying to say Unions have no benefit is wrong, but in some instances people get no benefit.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:36 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I don't dislike the concept of unionization in the private sector. Employees can try to bargain collectively if they want and employers should be able to fire employees "collectively". I'm against public unions.
This
I have no problem with the idea of Unions. If a group of laborers want to get together and negotiate with their employer, go for it. If in order to do that they need to collect dues and any negotiated protections/pay go to those who have paid said dues, cool. A union will be as strong as their labor/productivity dictates. The government should not do anything to help or hinder private sector unions.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:41 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:
All they are now is a way for a few greedy folks to make money off hard workers while providing little if any benefit to society.
Depends on the union. I don't really have problems with trade unions like the IBEW.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:42 pm to volod
quote:I could very well be wrong, but I don't think working for state, local or federal agencies are truly considered "free market" jobs. Just look at places like the DMV and even some of the teachers from your local schools and it's not hard to determine they are not the best and brightest. Schools are not competing with a "free market" pool of employees but rather a pool of those willing to work in that arena.
But if you stifle the market by making artificial ceiling (intentionally pay people lower) it's no better than a union.
Your local high school is not competing against IBM to hire a math teacher and chances are that math teacher couldn't get hired at IBM. Schools and government jobs are not traditional "free market" jobs IMO.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:43 pm to volod
quote:
That's terrible but I can understand why they shut down.
They shut down because the union wages made the truck cost more than it was worth. Therefore, they couldn't sell them.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:47 pm to volod
They made me pay a broon pusher 23 bucks an hour. Overtime was anything over 8 hours a day.
Double time Sunday.
Vacation fees, union fees, safety fees.
Double time Sunday.
Vacation fees, union fees, safety fees.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:55 pm to MizzouBS
quote:
guy I went to high school makes around $300,000(with no college) in a county(voted over 80% Trump) where the median income per household is less than $32,000.
I noticed this before. Why is it that in rural areas the median income is barely over 30k. But you have all these people living there making over 100k.
I thought GOP wins the richer districts, but so many areas that vote red are low income. What gives?
I don't understand how this works in Red States. The two don't mix at all.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:58 pm to volod
Posted on 7/27/18 at 1:06 pm to volod
Public employee unions are bad for taxpayers. They can donate to candidates that can directly increase their benefits. Even FDR thought public unions were a bad idea.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 1:15 pm to volod
I'm part of a "special ops" crew in my union. They took 6 of their hardest workers that can all double production of the lazies and give us double the work load....
Since the union prevents them from paying us more our reward is getting to clock in early and take shorter lunches so with the OT we get it adds up to about $1/hr raise.....
100% more production for 5% raise....
New union contract is being negotiated in Dec. If I don't get a raise closer to 30% I'm telling them to put me back w the lazies.
F this mess.
Since the union prevents them from paying us more our reward is getting to clock in early and take shorter lunches so with the OT we get it adds up to about $1/hr raise.....
100% more production for 5% raise....
New union contract is being negotiated in Dec. If I don't get a raise closer to 30% I'm telling them to put me back w the lazies.
F this mess.
This post was edited on 7/27/18 at 1:17 pm
Posted on 7/27/18 at 1:18 pm to volod
I am a union member.
I have absolutely no issue with them as long as membership is voluntary. When it is government-mandated, that is a gigantic problem.
I have absolutely no issue with them as long as membership is voluntary. When it is government-mandated, that is a gigantic problem.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 1:19 pm to Oddibe
quote:
Your local high school is not competing against IBM to hire a math teacher and chances are that math teacher couldn't get hired at IBM. Schools and government jobs are not traditional "free market" jobs IMO
I understand that to be case. I used teachers because they are one of the more well known unions.
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