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re: Time to switch from government to the free market
Posted on 12/13/19 at 1:00 pm to TigerWhatIR
Posted on 12/13/19 at 1:00 pm to TigerWhatIR
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/20/20 at 12:51 pm
1
Posted on 12/13/19 at 1:05 pm to Flats
Count me as a miniarchist. I believe Public police, criminal courts, and civil law courts are necessary to maintain peace and a civil society. I respect your opinion, but I believe your philosophy would not lead to the outcome you believe would happen, but rather something more resemblant of fuedal warlords. Without at least some semblance to ensure everyone has at least a base set of rules, might makes right becomes the rule. Whomever has the most might makes the rules and takes what they want. What you own becomes only what you can defend. That is not a recipe for an efficient society, but a chaotic and self-destructive one.
I think a better policy is to go with a much smaller government than we currently have (one similar to the enumerated powers of the Constitution) and add provisions requiring taxes to be renewed regularly by votes of the people, and for changes to those taxes to be done by the same manner. The issue with the involuntary nature of taxation is that it was, at one time, a conscious choice, but generations later are never given the opportunity to make that choice for themselves. Taxation should never be permitted to be permanent. It should always require renewal by popular vote, perhaps even a 2/3 majority.
I think a better policy is to go with a much smaller government than we currently have (one similar to the enumerated powers of the Constitution) and add provisions requiring taxes to be renewed regularly by votes of the people, and for changes to those taxes to be done by the same manner. The issue with the involuntary nature of taxation is that it was, at one time, a conscious choice, but generations later are never given the opportunity to make that choice for themselves. Taxation should never be permitted to be permanent. It should always require renewal by popular vote, perhaps even a 2/3 majority.
This post was edited on 12/13/19 at 1:06 pm
Posted on 12/13/19 at 1:05 pm to Flats
quote:
Under your 100% free market system, if I can hire a security force much greater than my neighbor, I can just run his arse out of his house and take over.
What’s stopping you from just killing your neighbor now and taking all his stuff?
If you’re referring to buying your own private army to take over a region, good luck with that. Good luck finding soldiers willing to die for you. Good luck winning, because other people will see what you’re doing and will pool their resources to stop you. Why would you assume all other people would let such an egregious injustice happen?
Posted on 12/13/19 at 1:09 pm to cahoots
quote:
If only there were a way for the people to change the way the bidding process works.....
Yes! Force the service providers to collect their funding directly from each user instead of getting unlimited funding via taxation/theft (e.g., operate like AT&T with subscribers). Then the bidding will happen on a large scale in the free market. People vote with their dollars. Bad actors lose public support and funding.
Posted on 12/13/19 at 1:23 pm to TigerWhatIR
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/20/20 at 12:52 pm
Posted on 12/13/19 at 1:25 pm to TigerWhatIR
quote:
What’s stopping you from just killing your neighbor now and taking all his stuff?
Our current legal/law enforcement system. They will stop me from doing that regardless of my ability to bribe them or his ability to pay them for protection. That's a feature, not a bug.
Posted on 12/13/19 at 1:29 pm to kingbob
quote:
fuedal warlords. Without at least some semblance to ensure everyone has at least a base set of rules, might makes right becomes the rule.
Yea, his local policing will quickly turn in to local tyranny.
Because might is right has been time tested throughout history.
You won't hear the truth from the resident slave owner, and because serfs are not allowed a printing press.
That there can be no competing models, that the Grand Council decides everything, that capital also is inevitably siphoned off to feed this Council smacks of Tyranny to me.
Posted on 12/13/19 at 1:38 pm to QboveTopSecret
Why would I trade 1 tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants 1 mile away?
Posted on 12/13/19 at 2:27 pm to TigerWhatIR
A truly free market only exists as a theory in textbooks.
Posted on 12/14/19 at 9:29 am to cahoots
quote:I guess it depends on what you think the purpose of taxes are. Are they to maximize income to the government, or put the screws to businesses?
Whereas the right wants government to bend over backwards for some (like Amazon) while everyone else plays by a different set of rules, all in the name of job creation and trickle down economics. It's crony capitalism. It doesn't result in the net creation of more jobs but that doesn't matter. Keep on changing the rules for some but not others because the government is evil
If it’s the former, one has to consider there is a competitive market for corporate siting. Describing having 25,000 local jobs created as no net benefit to the government is odd. Even if the local government netted $0 in direct tax money, they’d get the secondary effect. But because Amazon could go somewhere else the government will get $0 in direct taxes and $0 in secondary taxes. Far from optimal.
quote:
Exhibit A: screaming bloody murder when AOC pointed out that amazon is getting extremely favorable treatment
Why don’t you generate your own electricity? Posted on 12/14/19 at 9:42 am to Flats
cahoots:
The prison owner. He likely would put the prisoners to work somehow to offset their expenses, and likely would collect fees from the large insurance/security firms that are supposed to be protecting their subscribers. They call these firms DRO’s, Dispute Resolution Otganuzations. Basically mini governments that overlap regions just like any other insurance company, but in addition to insurance coverage they will provide security to make sure their subscribers are safe so they won’t have to pay out as much. They’d probably work together to cover costs of prisons too.
Flats:
No they won’t. They’re too busy setting up revenue extortion checkpoints elsewhere. They likely wont ever catch you later if you’re a good enough thief. They don’t even bother with the thousands of unprocessed rape kits they have.
That’s the problem with a monopoly power with no accountability. In the free market with multiple competing firms handling our policing, cops will do a good job or get fired or else people with switch to a better provider.
That’s how Free Market competition works. It would you rather have one monopoly government media source? One monopoly restaurant/cafeteria chain?
quote:
who pays for the operation of a prison?
The prison owner. He likely would put the prisoners to work somehow to offset their expenses, and likely would collect fees from the large insurance/security firms that are supposed to be protecting their subscribers. They call these firms DRO’s, Dispute Resolution Otganuzations. Basically mini governments that overlap regions just like any other insurance company, but in addition to insurance coverage they will provide security to make sure their subscribers are safe so they won’t have to pay out as much. They’d probably work together to cover costs of prisons too.
Flats:
quote:
Our current legal/law enforcement system. They will stop me from doing that regardless of my ability to bribe them or his ability to pay them for protection. That's a feature, not a bug.
No they won’t. They’re too busy setting up revenue extortion checkpoints elsewhere. They likely wont ever catch you later if you’re a good enough thief. They don’t even bother with the thousands of unprocessed rape kits they have.
That’s the problem with a monopoly power with no accountability. In the free market with multiple competing firms handling our policing, cops will do a good job or get fired or else people with switch to a better provider.
That’s how Free Market competition works. It would you rather have one monopoly government media source? One monopoly restaurant/cafeteria chain?
Posted on 12/14/19 at 9:54 am to kingbob
quote:
Count me as a miniarchist. I believe Public police, criminal courts, and civil law courts are necessary to maintain peace and a civil society.
I agree. I just want them funded voluntarily. A justice system that steals from people is absurd. I also want the judges/arbiters and the cops to be held accountable and to be quickly removed when they are bad. I don’t want to be forced to use bad ones. The free market competition of multiple firms provides for that choice and accountability.
Taxation is theft from those who do not consent to it. You believe we should have a system that GUARANTEES to violate our rights rather than a free market that MIGHT have some people violate our rights?
You have no right to cut my grass without my consent and then steal my money to pay yourself for it. It doesn’t matter how important you think a pretty lawn is. It doesn’t matter if the majority of our neighbors voted in favor of robbing me. Majority or Might does not make Right.
Most of society wants peace, not feudal warlords. They will not tolerate some rich guy trampling in his neighbors rights. They’ll band together to stop it. No one would attempt such a thing in the first place because they know it wouldn’t last and they’d pay the consequences.
Posted on 12/14/19 at 10:11 am to TigerWhatIR
Something else to think about:
The founders intended for us to be able to shoot people in our government who were oppressing us. That was their solution to the problem of a monopoly power becoming tyrannical.
The free market provides a peaceful alternative to that. I’d be able to simply stop using the oppressive system and switch to a better, competing firm, and the bad one either fired it’s bad actors or goes out of business. In extreme cases my firm charges some of their employees with crimes.
In today’s world though, if a cop violates me and I resist, or defend myself, I most assuredly will be the one charged with the crimes. This is the result of monopoly power. There is no better way to run the monopoly to avoid this. It’s what monopolies do.
The founders intended for us to be able to shoot people in our government who were oppressing us. That was their solution to the problem of a monopoly power becoming tyrannical.
The free market provides a peaceful alternative to that. I’d be able to simply stop using the oppressive system and switch to a better, competing firm, and the bad one either fired it’s bad actors or goes out of business. In extreme cases my firm charges some of their employees with crimes.
In today’s world though, if a cop violates me and I resist, or defend myself, I most assuredly will be the one charged with the crimes. This is the result of monopoly power. There is no better way to run the monopoly to avoid this. It’s what monopolies do.
Posted on 12/16/19 at 11:52 am to KCT
KCT, where are you at? Any follow-up to my reply? You were the most outspoken against liberty in the other thread and demanding that I start a new thread on the free market / liberty.
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