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re: This poll scares me.....capitalists MUST somehow gain them back. They are the future
Posted on 3/2/19 at 3:54 pm to LSUconvert
Posted on 3/2/19 at 3:54 pm to LSUconvert
quote:
So even though you concede that information (true or not)is more available now than ever, that doesn't bring us closer to informed? I'm not sure how you can arrive at that conclusion.
Because most people learn just enough to be confident in their ill-informed opinion.
0
Posted on 3/2/19 at 3:59 pm to MI LSU
quote:
Or maybe they see that that’s a fallacy—Nordic countries, for example, are both famously socially progressive AND happy overall. In fact, they consistently sit at the top of satisfaction indices year after ye
If we implemented a complete system like Norway or Sweden, the left would absolutely explode.
All the Bernies of the world talk about is the safety net, they don’t talk about the fact that the lower and middle class bear a much larger share of the tax burden than they do in America or that they have an incredibly deregulated business environment with low corporate taxation.
For instance, in Norway the top marginal rate is only 39% but it applies to all income at 1.2x the average income. In the US, that’s only $60,000.
Outside of maybe Biden, the Nordic systems run counter to everything being espoused by the leading voices in the Democrat party.
This post was edited on 3/2/19 at 4:06 pm
Posted on 3/2/19 at 4:09 pm to MI LSU
quote:
quote:
It's amazing how young people want to vote themselves into economic slavery.
Or maybe they see that that’s a fallacy—Nordic countries, for example, are both famously socially progressive AND happy overall. In fact, they consistently sit at the top of satisfaction indices year after year.
That’s a far cry from the doom-and-gloom scenarios the Right tries to propagate would happen if we shifted toward a more egalitarian system...
Then why have most of the rest of Europe - many of which have tried to copy some form of the Nordic model into their own countries - economically failed so miserably over the last twenty years or so? France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal, and on and on? Even Germany's median income is significantly less than the United States', and that's without taking into account purchasing power. Why has an NHS-style healthcare system failed so spectacularly almost everywhere it's been instituted outside of the UK?
You should look up maladaptive mimetic isomorphism. It might explain some things.
Posted on 3/2/19 at 5:02 pm to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
Then why have most of the rest of Europe - many of which have tried to copy some form of the Nordic model into their own countries - economically failed so miserably over the last twenty years or so? France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal, and on and on? Even Germany's median income is significantly less than the United States', and that's without taking into account purchasing power.
I don't know. Each probably has an extremely complicated and nuanced story behind it. That doesn't change the fact that there are successful versions of socially progressive governments, and that having one doesn't equal "economic slavery."
quote:
Why has an NHS-style healthcare system failed so spectacularly almost everywhere it's been instituted outside of the UK?
You should look up maladaptive mimetic isomorphism. It might explain some things.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make re: mimetic isomorphism. People naturally want to take successful ideas/concepts and institute them elsewhere. This breaks down if it's just a veneer or under the wrong circumstances, but it's far from being an automatic harbinger of failure.
The fact that you're bringing up places and examples of being successful elsewhere just strengthens the idea that egalitarianism isn't inherently a failure (or slavery
) This post was edited on 3/2/19 at 5:04 pm
Posted on 3/2/19 at 5:31 pm to MI LSU
quote:
I don't know. Each probably has an extremely complicated and nuanced story behind it.
Yes, of course - they each have unique social, economic, and political contexts behind why they failed. But the bottom line is that they are inferior systems to maximizing wealth, innovation, and social welfare to ours. And for every one case where it might be comparable or even better to the American system (the Nordics), there are three or four where it has failed, often spectacularly: southern Europe, most of Latin America, most of eastern Europe, etc. all have much more robust social welfare systems than we do relative to GDP, yet all are objectively much worse places to live and work.
quote:
That doesn't change the fact that there are successful versions of socially progressive governments, and that having one doesn't equal "economic slavery."
I didn't say that, so don't put words into my mouth. And there are successful examples of economically liberal governments as well.
quote:
I don't understand the point you're trying to make re: mimetic isomorphism. People naturally want to take successful ideas/concepts and institute them elsewhere. This breaks down if it's just a veneer or under the wrong circumstances, but it's far from being an automatic harbinger of failure.
That successful adaptation of systems requires a particular and unique set of circumstances that are not present in the United States? That should have been pretty obvious. It might not be an automatic harbinger of failure, but it's a good sign. What about American government and society makes you think that we could pull off a Nordic-like system without it being a spectacular waste?
On the other side of the equation, countries like Hong Kong and Singapore have much lower rates of welfare spending than we do (about half) and much, much lower than the Europeans. Why don't we copy them? Because those countries are successful in their current systems given their particular and unique set of circumstances, ones that we can't copy.
quote:
The fact that you're bringing up places and examples of being successful elsewhere just strengthens the idea that egalitarianism isn't inherently a failure (or slavery )
This is just gibberish.
This post was edited on 3/2/19 at 5:33 pm
Posted on 3/2/19 at 5:52 pm to MI LSU
quote:
Couple that with the fact that we’ve essentially created a generation (or two) of indentured servants, who went to college with a proverbial gun to their head by their parents, promising that was the only route to wealth, and instead these young(-ish) people are now struggling (and often failing) to just stay afloat, in a sea of overwhelming and crushing debt.
Many of these kids are struggling because of their own stupid decisions. Their parents may have pushed them to go to college, but I doubt any parent pushed them to major in Art History instead of finance or engineering. Struggling financially after college graduation is also the result of poor choices after receiving their degree. Today's economy offers plenty of opportunity to grow financially, but many of these kid's would rather continue living in their parents basement and complain about their plight then embrace capitalism to their own benefit, they see it as being a participant in the further growth of corporate greed.
This post was edited on 3/2/19 at 5:55 pm
Posted on 3/2/19 at 6:00 pm to MI LSU
quote:
that there are successful versions of socially progressive governments,
Not socialist, middle class pays out the arse.
Posted on 3/2/19 at 6:03 pm to MI LSU
quote:
That’s a far cry from the doom-and-gloom scenarios the Right tries to propagate would happen if we shifted toward a more egalitarian system...
The silly thing is you actually believe this.
Posted on 3/2/19 at 9:31 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
There were two studies released last year that found that American political knowledge was at an all-time low.
25 year olds used to get their news from the newspaper. Now they get it from the daily show. 25 year olds used to have real world experience, now they have none.
Posted on 3/3/19 at 5:31 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Nothing will damage a capitalist system faster than (1) A perceived lack of opportunity for upward mobility and (2) The perception that the system is somehow rigged to favor a small minority of participants. Both those things are true today.
If a hardworking, intelligent, 16 year old were to come to you today and want to be successful how would you guide them?
If a hardworking, intelligent, 16 year old were to come to you today and want to be successful how would you guide them?
This post was edited on 3/3/19 at 5:33 am
Posted on 3/3/19 at 7:49 am to Boatshoes
As the baby boomers start to retire, it will open up a ton of jobs at higher pay levels for the Gen X'ers and younger. The millennials stand to benefit the most. Not to mention the amount of wealth that will be released as baby boomers (who have staved of retirement due to the market crash in 2008-intentional for this reason IMO) start cashing in retirements and leave the work force. Once younger workers can see the light at the end of the tunnel, socialism won't look to damn good when you're making bank.
Posted on 3/3/19 at 8:09 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Older people had much less privileged lives than younger people, yet it is the youngest that want the most change to our economy
Absentee fathers is the reason.
A lot of Generation X and younger boomers weren't interested in being fathers. A lot of these millennials weren't taught personal responsibility.
There are a lot of momma's boys who post on this message board.
Posted on 3/3/19 at 8:31 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
If we implemented a complete system like Norway or Sweden, the left would absolutely explode.
All the Bernies of the world talk about is the safety net, they don’t talk about the fact that the lower and middle class bear a much larger share of the tax burden than they do in America or that they have an incredibly deregulated business environment with low corporate taxation.
Eliminate all corporate tax in USA except that which all WTO countries must pay (none at this juncture).
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