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re: The U.S. Supreme Court blocks President Trump from deporting Venezuelan Aliens

Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:35 am to
Posted by IvoryBillMatt
Member since Mar 2020
10132 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:35 am to
quote:

If you wait for the lawyers, nothing happens. Every successful endeavor has a lawyer saying “don’t do it.”


Immigration is a LOGISTICS problem. We need more capacity: detention centers, Immigration judges, etc. I can't imagine a lawyer saying "no, don't do that."

Steven Miller is obviously brilliant. Why do you think he didn't address the problem?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477231 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:37 am to
quote:

But when half the country believes that if you don't like what the law says you simply pretend it says something else then you're not really a country of laws in the first place.

So in your society where judicial review doesn't exist, how do we deal with the flaws of language in a society based on laws written with that flawed language? More importantly, how can you build a legal system for some form of permanence for a society that's constantly changing (including language) with societal and technological developments that could never have been intended at the original writing (what my contracts professor used to call the "Pink Elephant problem"), without some form of judicial review?

quote:

Now I am sure some a-hole lawyer will step in here and pretend like there's no such thing as plain language. Which is such a fricking stupid argument because if that thought process was really true communication wouldn't even be possible. How would communication even work if we didn't have General agreements upon what the words mean?

This is an admitted argument from authority, but lawyers who have litigated cases understand how often this conflict arises, and I don't think people who are outside of that (there are some non-legal avenues to deal with this, mind you) understand how common this is.

A lot of our communication is not precise in any way. Ever played a game of Telephone?

If you want to have your mind blown, a lot of our memories are also not precise in any way, which doesn't affect an academic discussion like this thread, but in terms of litigation makes it incredibly difficult (and more procedural rules have to be made to account for this).
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477231 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:39 am to
quote:

Why don't we argue math sometime? Math is either right or wrong, true or false.


At a basic level, but not when you get into the weeds.

If math was completely settled, then there would be very few math departments in higher education and new papers based around mathematics would be scarce.

Just like with a very related discipline: physics. There are what, 2? 3? major veins of physics that are in conflict with each other at the highest levels?
Posted by loogaroo
Welsh
Member since Dec 2005
42453 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:39 am to
quote:

The order relied on the Alien Enemies Act, a 1798 law that gives the president the power to detain or remove citizens of an enemy nation without a hearing or any other review by a court if Congress declares war or there is an “invasion” or “predatory incursion.”


How can anyone argue with the above if the criteria are met?

SCOTUS punted plain and simple.
Posted by Grumpy Nemesis
Member since Feb 2025
2033 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:40 am to
quote:


So in your society where judicial review doesn't exist

Didn't say that

quote:

how do we deal with the flaws of language in a society based on laws written with that flawed language?
and here we have the lawyer showing up for pending that we don't all have this amazing ability to communicate on a daily basis. Just as I predicted

quote:


This is an admitted argument from authority, but lawyers who have litigated cases understand how often this conflict arises
no it really doesn't. It really doesn't. 99.9% of the time the two sides of every conflict over supposedly not understanding the language could be left in a room to talk about a thousand other subjects and never have any difficulty whatsoever.

There's no actual language conflict. It's just one side doesn't like what the language says and so they're pretending. If language conflict was as common as you lawyers claim it is then none of us could fricking sit at dinner with anybody and have a normal conversation. We'd be stopping every 3 minutes for God damn clarification

Posted by Grumpy Nemesis
Member since Feb 2025
2033 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:41 am to
quote:


A lot of our communication is not precise in any way. Ever played a game of Telephone?

You should be ashamed of this argument because it doesn't even address the subject at hand. Telephone is a test of a people's ability to repeat it accurately over time. But if at the end of the telephone game you brought everybody in the room and had the first person repeat what he said they would all fricking understand it! Every last one of them good God you call yourself a lawyer? If you've ever used that one in court put it back in your pocket. People will laugh at you
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477231 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:44 am to
quote:

How can anyone argue with the above if the criteria are met?

I don't think any of the 3 criteria are met
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
128846 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:45 am to
quote:

Immigration is a LOGISTICS problem. We need more capacity: detention centers, Immigration judges, etc. I can't imagine a lawyer saying "no, don't do that."


Lol. No it’s not. It’s a political will problem. And the politicians don’t have the will to address it.

With each of your proposed solutions above: detention centers and immigration judges, there would be 18 lawyers telling you what you could and couldn’t do. And delay is inaction.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477231 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:46 am to
quote:

Didn't say that


Then what, specifically, did you mean by saying "you simply pretend it says something else"?

quote:

and here we have the lawyer showing up for pending that we don't all have this amazing ability to communicate on a daily basis. Just as I predicted


For very basic things the issues in language aren't typically apparent.

As things get more complicated, they emerge.

quote:

There's no actual language conflict. It's just one side doesn't like what the language says a


Yeah the ones who are arguing we're being invaded don't like the fact that the law limits it to that standard
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
128846 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:47 am to
quote:

You still didn't answer the question. You're just arguing the language I used.


If that wasn’t allowed, you would cease to exist on this forum.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477231 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:47 am to
quote:

Telephone is a test of a people's ability to repeat it accurately over time.

Based on the input of language they receive.

Note: I specifically said "communication"

Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477231 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:48 am to
quote:

Lol. No it’s not. It’s a political will problem.

Only in a system of unlimited government, which we do not have.

quote:

And the politicians don’t have the will to address it.

Because very few of them want to promote authoritarianism and reject our principles of limited government.

Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
128846 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:48 am to
quote:

I just don't see an alternative to the legal system for regulating behavior.


The law doesn’t regulate behavior here.

Does a legal system have to exist is a separate question. In an ordered society of any size, probably yes.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477231 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:49 am to
quote:

We can call our actual laws "reality regulations" to avoid the language issue you said.

Can you define what a "law" is in your language/meaning? Or, if you don't believe in a society based on your concept of law, I revert back to the question you didn't answer.


quote:

What is your alternative to a society based on [reality regulations], exactly?

Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
128846 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:49 am to
quote:

Because very few of them want to promote authoritarianism and reject our principles of limited government.


You’re not enough of a retard to believe this. This post of yours wasn’t about morals.
Posted by RohanGonzales
Pronoun: Whatever
Member since Apr 2024
10711 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:51 am to
quote:

For very basic things the issues in language aren't typically apparent.

As things get more complicated, they emerge.


typical lawyer doublespeak

Real intellectual pursuits can be proven right or wrong. "Law" is primarily time-wasting bullshite, but the lawyers get paid.

Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477231 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:51 am to
quote:

You’re not enough of a retard to believe this.

There's self interest involved. They're much more likely to lose their next election by doing so.

Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477231 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:53 am to
quote:

Real intellectual pursuits can be proven right or wrong. "


That's why the disciplines of philosophy, math, physics, etc. are still ongoing.

quote:

"Law" is primarily time-wasting bullshite, but the lawyers get paid.

Somehow I don't think you'd be melting if your perceived in-group ("team") was winning

I notice you left out the language in dispute and my commentary on it
This post was edited on 5/17/25 at 8:54 am
Posted by Grumpy Nemesis
Member since Feb 2025
2033 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:55 am to
quote:


Based on the input of language they receive.

Note: I specifically said "communication

At this point I have to assume you're faking stupidity.

Every last soul in the telephone game would agree upon the language if they all listen to it at the same time. So unless we're talking about a legal system where they tell somebody about the law but never write it down your point is fricking retarded
Posted by KCT
Psalm 23:5
Member since Feb 2010
50072 posts
Posted on 5/17/25 at 8:56 am to
quote:

SlowFlowPro


86 SFP


DISCLAIMER - Just like James Comey, I have no idea what that means.
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