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Started By
Message
re: The right is divided
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:06 am to wackatimesthree
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:06 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
And those people have taken over the party completely.
Bush was a collectivist and indeed saw the largest expansion of medical entitlement benefits since the creation of Medicare itself.
2
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:07 am to 10thyrsr
You have a flawed premise. It is easy for one person to be conservative, classically liberal concerning individual rights, religious, and have a vested financial interest. These attributes are not inherently at odds. 
I think you're getting down voted because your initial question doesn't make any sense and implies that all of these things except being concerned about liberty are bad (labeling conservative as undefinable, calling religious people zealots, and implying that people looking after their financial interests are greedy). If you're not just shite posting, make better word choices next time.
I think you're getting down voted because your initial question doesn't make any sense and implies that all of these things except being concerned about liberty are bad (labeling conservative as undefinable, calling religious people zealots, and implying that people looking after their financial interests are greedy). If you're not just shite posting, make better word choices next time.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:09 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Tariffs
What makes that populist or collective? Many people from all perspectives have utilize those for all sorts of reasons throughout our existence. Is that really the biggest thing?
quote:
MAHA
Something that was conceptualized about like 6 months ago?
Do you even have any idea at the present how "collectivist" it's implementation may be? Does anyone?
I guess, you sort of make the point that it seems like a rather nonsensical descriptor.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:10 am to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
What makes that populist or collective?
Its favors for specific corporations that are supposed to benefit society, and do not benefit the individual.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:10 am to 10thyrsr
quote:
What are your takes on how we come together?
I don’t see division anywhere really, but to answer your question…
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for American citizens. Anything that threatens that must be dealt with, including any and all corruption that ends up hurting American citizens so that fat cats can get fatter and Americans pay the price. That’s all rational people really desire from the government. Just leave them alone, and quite screwing with them, their country, or their constitutional inheritance. Stop trying to subjugate and rule over people with an iron fist, or surrender constitutional authority to a one world government, stop destroying our institutions, and weakening America to make us vulnerable to tyranny, and leave them alone. Be responsible with OUR money we earned from the sweat from our brow, that which we give them for the sole purpose of running the country with, and just fund our basic infrastructure as per their constitutional directive. Our money is not intended to fix a broken world. Its sole purpose is to run a government that serves the American citizens basic interests.
This is how we all come together, regardless of who you voted for, unless of course you voted for that which threatens American interests. Then of course, I don’t ever desire to come together with you as you are a domestic threat to every American citizen.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:12 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Since 2010, we've been practicing MMT.
Tomato, Tomahto.
The difference between MMT and Keynesian monetary policies is a difference of scale, not degree.
MMT is indeed the logical endpoint of Keynesian economics.
This post was edited on 12/10/24 at 9:12 am
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:13 am to RogerTheShrubber
The rift between the GOPe and the conservative/populist has existed and been growing for decades. As to the speed that is all due to the constant and often failed attacks on a certain leader by his enemies. What was a swell by their own hands was made into a tsunami.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:13 am to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
Bush was a collectivist and indeed saw the largest expansion of medical entitlement benefits since the creation of Medicare itself.
Roger, is this more or less "collectivist" than threatening and possibly implementing tariffs in certain perceived distorted international trading situations?
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:15 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Mercantilism replaced capitalism as the economic choice for MAGA, its decidedly leftist. It seems to increase COLLECTIVE PROSPERITY instead of individual prosperity.
Thanks so much for the detailed response. I will chew on it.
I hadn't encountered the mercantilism v capitalism distinction before. Much obliged.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:16 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Tariffs
MAHA
Both things we trashed Democrats over prior to Trump.
I understand what you are saying in relation to traditional conservative policies. But being for tariffs or for promoting health across society does not strike me as anything close to necessarily collectivist.
I think there is a general feeling amongst American that the free-trade-at-any-cost policy that conservatives advocated for beginning in the early 70s is not working. Trying to alter that through tariffs or anything else does nto strike me as "collectivist" at all. Unless you think any economic policy that tries to promote wealth generation for a society as a whole is collectivist - which seems an odd take.
I think you can say a similar thing about MAHA - although the actual approah on that front remains to be seen.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:19 am to JimEverett
quote:
But being for tariffs or for promoting health across society does not strike me as anything close to necessarily collectivist.
It debases the value of the individual for the success of the collective.
100% progressive.
quote:
I think there is a general feeling amongst American that the free-trade-at-any-cost policy that conservatives advocated for beginning in the early 70s is not working.
Between Free Trade and massive tariffs is a whole lot of territory. I can accept the populist angst that true free trade is a thing of the past, but that doesnt mean total economic protectionism is necessary.
The love of tariffs is based on pure economic ignorance. Trade imbalances will happen when one nation is wealthier than others and it can still be beneficial to those who are on the low side of the imbalance.
This post was edited on 12/10/24 at 9:30 am
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:23 am to IvoryBillMatt
quote:
I hadn't encountered the mercantilism v capitalism distinction before. Much obliged.
Capitalism believes in free markets to promote individual excellence.
Mercantilism protects the collective economy through protectionism.
As mentioned above, we went from Keynesian economics to Modern Monetary Theory following the recession in 2008. We have been there ever since.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:26 am to 10thyrsr
quote:
Occupation: Scientist
It's not rocket science.
People have differing opinions. The traditional GOPe conservative base (RINO warmongers) were lulled into being that way from years of Faux News telling them that people like John McNoname, the Bushes, Pierre Dilecto and your John Bolton types are what it means to be "conservative". They're the party that wants endless wars with brown people in the middle eastern deserts for oil, and that old guard is far from dead.
Next, you have the growing 'America First" movement, that wants us out of endless wars, wants energy independence, believes in the US Constitution and wants to greatly roll back the overreach granted to the federal government as of late, putting them back in a place of limited scope. Most of these people walked away from Faux News and chose to start attaining their information from multiple "smaller" and more independent sources not beholden to the colossal corporate money of advertising from big pharma and social media platforms.
I'm not really sure what to say about the Christian thing, though. Every Christian I know voted for Trump but there's not really a division there. They're either recently converted former-GOPe voters or they're America First all the way and have always been.
Anecdotal, but that's what I've got.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:37 am to JimEverett
quote:
If I am understanding this, you are buying into the idea that the major underlying source of the current iteration of conservative populism is socialism? Maybe more specifically national socialism?
No.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:37 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
As mentioned above, we went from Keynesian economics to Modern Monetary Theory following the recession in 2008. We have been there ever since.
Making this huge delineation between the advocates for MMT & the Keynesians is akin to arguing over the ideological divide between the Trotskyites and the Stalinists.
Again, MMT is simply the logical progression of Keynesian economics.
It is indeed noted Keynesian Paul Krugman who has repeatedly pitched the idea of minting a $trillion dollar coin.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:38 am to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Roger, is this more or less "collectivist" than threatening and possibly implementing tariffs in certain perceived distorted international trading situations?
Less.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:39 am to 10thyrsr
quote:
The triple point of politics, hate, and weakness under pressure. You are the precipitate.
Ah, the garbled jargon that emerges from the cognitive dissonance of the left.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:40 am to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
Making this huge delineation between the advocates for MMT & the Keynesians is akin to arguing over the ideological divide between the Trotskyites and the Stalinists.
Keynes believed in stimulating the economy in downturns. MMT is constant stimulation of the economy regardless of economic indicators, sans inflation.
Keynes is tax and spend. MMT is spend and debt. They are not close to the same.
This post was edited on 12/10/24 at 9:41 am
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:41 am to 10thyrsr
quote:
What are your takes on how we come together?
Under the iron fist of Trump.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:41 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
Under the iron fist of Trump.
Good luck with that.
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