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re: The battle of religion and freedom, between church and grace
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:32 am to theballguy
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:32 am to theballguy
quote:
But, if you need to buy into it to help you do good,
If you truly experience spirituality, you dont need to "buy" into it.
it will come naturally.
the problem is most people think Religion is spirituality.
1
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:41 am to Guntoter1
quote:
I find it so interesting and compelling that people like you, former Catholics ,
Hav a very well formed conscience and love for Christ.
Yall also have a very good ability to spot genuine error and flaws in “religion”.
I wonder why that is?
Could it be because you have Christ in your heart?
I wonder why you have him inside you
I wonder how that happened?
Where did it come from?
I was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic school. My family was, and many still are vehemently staunch Roman Catholics, and so up until my teenage years, I had a head knowledge of God, but never anything everyone else I knew had.
Like most kids, I’d go through feelings of uncertainty and identity in where I fit in in all of this, but always knew I believed, so much so that I would often take walks in the woods and talk to Him. On a few occasions I vividly remember just telling Him my confusions, and saying I didn’t know anything for certain, but I knew I believed in Him, and Jesus is His son, and so forth, and felt a real presence of God all around and through me. Years later I confirmed that in a prayer to ask Jesus as my savior on television, and I had a real personal experience with God as I was filled with a warmth and love of God that startled me in the weight of it’s reality, but also in the feeling of being loved with a love that was unlike anything I had ever experienced and yet more real than real as well. I felt clean, and that I had a place of belonging that I couldn’t have dreamed was possible.
I had no direction, and never spoke about it to anyone, and years later I was vegging out on the couch on summer vacation in between my junior and senior years and my dad told me as he was leaving for work that he was going to buy a Bible, and I asked him to get me one if he could, to which he did. Unbeknownst to me at the time, God was also working in my dad as well. That entire summer, rather than chasing girls which was my obsession, all I did was read the KJB, and it made perfect sense to me as His word began to draw me closer and closer to Him. To appreciate the miracle that was, I was the absolute worst in English in HS, and could not understand the relentless studies we did on Shakespeare and old English I had to study. I mean I stunk it up, but with the KJB, I had nothing but clarity.
This is what did the transformation in my life. It was God, All God to be exact. All I did was believe as a child, and in childlike honest faith. It’s always in what you believe. That’s what saves. It’s not what I do, or did. It’s in what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:45 am to Red_and_black
I think we all know what we need to know about human nature. It can be pretty horrible at times. It can also be pretty good. Humans as a whole are not doomed though. There's no shortage of chicken littles (whether conservative or liberal) but I've not seen evidence of that.
We all do horrible shite and we all do wonderful shite -- some more than others for each of these. We are all born and we all die.
Where and what is this thing that needs saving here? It is pretty much what it is. What does "saving" mean exactly?
I guess it depends on how you look at things. I'm suggesting one can choose a different way to look at things.
We all do horrible shite and we all do wonderful shite -- some more than others for each of these. We are all born and we all die.
Where and what is this thing that needs saving here? It is pretty much what it is. What does "saving" mean exactly?
I guess it depends on how you look at things. I'm suggesting one can choose a different way to look at things.
This post was edited on 11/15/25 at 10:48 am
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:47 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
It was God, All God to be exact. All I did was believe as a child, and in childlike honest faith. It’s always in what you believe. That’s what saves. It’s not what I do, or did.
Very happy for you.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:52 am to RogerTheShrubber
The "buy" into it, I mean as faith. Not in a cheap "ok, sure whatever".
We do even in the natural world often have to take things on faith. Like being told, trust me, in this case, do this. You'll thank yourself even if you yourself don't believe it at first.
Hammer meet head of nail.
I would submit though that religion is conventionally thought of as rituals of faith, along with some elements of faith and combined with a set of rules.
For a lot of people though, unfortunately, it just means a set of rules and that's it. If God is just a set of rules to you, you will indeed become a miserable human being and come to hate God.
We do even in the natural world often have to take things on faith. Like being told, trust me, in this case, do this. You'll thank yourself even if you yourself don't believe it at first.
quote:
most people think Religion is spirituality.
Hammer meet head of nail.
I would submit though that religion is conventionally thought of as rituals of faith, along with some elements of faith and combined with a set of rules.
For a lot of people though, unfortunately, it just means a set of rules and that's it. If God is just a set of rules to you, you will indeed become a miserable human being and come to hate God.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:56 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
This is what did the transformation in my life. It was God, All God to be exact.
Wrong.
You said you were raised Catholic.
And your dad bought you a KJB.
Your parents introduced you to Jesus .
Just as Protestant parents do and just as Catholic parents do.
Where did you parents learn about Jesus?
If institutional religion dies Christ will be lost to history eventually.
My story is very similar to yours.
But a high school history teacher was the true Christian that filled in all the gaps and exposed the flaws in Catholic education.
He was a devout Catholic and a black man.
I will be forever in his debt.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 11:00 am to theballguy
quote:
I would submit though that religion is conventionally thought of as rituals of faith, along with some elements of faith and combined with a set of rules.
agree
Posted on 11/15/25 at 11:07 am to Guntoter1
quote:
Wrong.
You said you were raised Catholic.
And your dad bought you a KJB.
Your parents introduced you to Jesus .
Just as Protestant parents do and just as Catholic parents do.
Where did you parents learn about Jesus?
If institutional religion dies Christ will be lost to history eventually.
My story is very similar to yours.
But a high school history teacher was the true Christian that filled in all the gaps and exposed the flaws in Catholic education.
He was a devout Catholic and a black man.
I will be forever in his debt.
The answer I was looking for was not in religion though. Even nature itself testifies of the existence of God. It was the Bible that is where I found who God is rather than who man tells me who God is, and therein is what differentiates truth from falsehood you see in religion. It’s not that it serves no purpose or God cannot use it to spread truth, but it is the truth that sets one free, and that is found in the word of God, just as light became light only when God said “let there be light”. His word is all powerful. Mine and yours are minuscule by comparison . The will of God is that we believe upon the Son. That’s what saves mankind. You’re accepting a gift already given, already paid for in full, and not of yourself. It is the gift of God.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 11:26 am to Mike da Tigah
What people don't understand when it comes to the Christian religion is that the "religion" part is there to support the truth of Christ. He gave us a church with elders for the teaching and instruction in God's word. He gave us the church for the encouragement of each other towards God's glory. He gave us discipline through the church for correction in the truth. He gave us the sacraments and the means of grace for our growth in grace.
I agree that that too many people can be more invested in the religious aspects than the truth, and that's what the leaders of Israel were doing at the time of Jesus; they honored God with their lips and not their hearts. However, we don't want to go to the other extreme and remove ourselves from what God has given us for our good, leading towards radical individualism which can and often times does lead people away from the truth as people wind up following their own deceitful hearts, doing what is right in their own eyes.
The balance is following the commands of Christ in thankful response to the grace of salvation by faith in Christ alone, for the building up of one another in righteousness and for the true worship of the triune God.
I agree that that too many people can be more invested in the religious aspects than the truth, and that's what the leaders of Israel were doing at the time of Jesus; they honored God with their lips and not their hearts. However, we don't want to go to the other extreme and remove ourselves from what God has given us for our good, leading towards radical individualism which can and often times does lead people away from the truth as people wind up following their own deceitful hearts, doing what is right in their own eyes.
The balance is following the commands of Christ in thankful response to the grace of salvation by faith in Christ alone, for the building up of one another in righteousness and for the true worship of the triune God.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 11:38 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
Believe Him, not man. Man is a liar, but God cannot lie.
Do you not include yourself in the statement that “Man is a liar”? What inoculates you from being the product of the same cultural influences and human fallibilities that you believe deceive theists of other religions?
quote:
If Jesus did not die for us, we are still in our sins and enemies with God. Jesus brought peace.
I have a theological issue with this because I believe that without a literal fall of man that the death and resurrection of Jesus doesn’t make any sense.
Basically, if death preceded the sin of Adam then we do not suffer and die because of Adam. If we do not suffer and die because of Adam’s sin, then why is Jesus necessary?
The geological record appears to indicate that humans (and life in general) greatly predate the time at which Christians believe Adam existed. Those early humans endured nightmarish conditions to survive. I don’t see a reason to believe that Earth was ever a terrestrial Heaven that sinless Man should have originally inherited.
If Man is not responsible for the death of this world, then how are we justifiably blamed for it?
Posted on 11/15/25 at 11:41 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
That’s what saves mankind. You’re accepting a gift already given, already paid for in full, and not of yourself. It is the gift of God.
Of course you are 100% correct.
quote:
The answer I was looking for was not in religion though.
You do understand that believing in the Salvific power of Jesus Christ is a religion. It is a belief system.
Saying that you believe in the saving power of Jesus, but you don’t believe in religion is a contradictory statement.
I understand what you were trying to say but you do have a belief system, and A belief system is the very definition of religion.
You have admitted in your very first post that your belief system does not fit into any particular religion.
When Catholics say the creed, they state their belief system
You have stated yours
It is your religion.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 11:50 am to FooManChoo
We should always be like the Bereans. They didn’t even believe what Paul said about God, but rather returned home to search the scriptures to make sure what he was saying was true.
The problem with a lot of believers today is, not unlike like myself at points in my life, they allowed themselves to be lured into believing what people were saying the word meant rather than keeping themselves firmly in the word alone. That builds confusion, and then false teachings to take root, and often times disillusionment or even doubt to what you first believed. Practicing sound studying of the word in context, who is speaking to whom, what are they discussing, etc, rather than allowing some guy behind a pulpit to go on a long diatribe using a single verse plucked from scripture without thought to the big picture or using multiple scriptures to reaffirm scripture to educate the church body on God’s truths.
The woman who gave her last coin, and the I can do all things through Christ preachers are some of the most egregious of them all. They pluck it out of the scriptures without any context given, and then tell you why you have to give everything you have, and you can just do whatever you like in Christ. Nonsense.
The problem with a lot of believers today is, not unlike like myself at points in my life, they allowed themselves to be lured into believing what people were saying the word meant rather than keeping themselves firmly in the word alone. That builds confusion, and then false teachings to take root, and often times disillusionment or even doubt to what you first believed. Practicing sound studying of the word in context, who is speaking to whom, what are they discussing, etc, rather than allowing some guy behind a pulpit to go on a long diatribe using a single verse plucked from scripture without thought to the big picture or using multiple scriptures to reaffirm scripture to educate the church body on God’s truths.
The woman who gave her last coin, and the I can do all things through Christ preachers are some of the most egregious of them all. They pluck it out of the scriptures without any context given, and then tell you why you have to give everything you have, and you can just do whatever you like in Christ. Nonsense.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 11:51 am to Globetrotter747
quote:
Do you not include yourself in the statement that “Man is a liar”?
I do, and I am. Don’t believe me. Believe God. Seek Him.
This post was edited on 11/15/25 at 11:52 am
Posted on 11/15/25 at 11:59 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:Amen! That's why sola scriptura was such an important rallying cry of the Protestant Reformation. Scripture, not the pastor, the elders, the councils, or the popes are the highest authority for the Christian, and why each of us needs to read the Bible and seek to understand it more so we can hold others accountable to the truth. God still gave us gifted and wise men with great knowledge of the scriptures to help us understand them better, but the Bible is our only infallible rule for faith and life, and we should hold all others to account based on what the Bible teaches.
We should always be like the Bereans. They didn’t even believe what Paul said about God, but rather returned home to search the scriptures to make sure what he was saying was true.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 12:36 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
That's why sola scriptura was such an important rallying cry of the Protestant Reformation. Scripture, not the pastor, the elders, the councils, or the popes are the highest authority for the Christian,
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
Posted on 11/15/25 at 12:39 pm to Mike da Tigah
quote:
Do you not include yourself in the statement that “Man is a liar”?
quote:
I do, and I am. Don’t believe me. Believe God. Seek Him.
Everything you think you know about God was relayed to you by many generations of fallible men over thousands of years. Everything you think you feel about God is interpreted by a fallible mind.
This post was edited on 11/15/25 at 12:46 pm
Posted on 11/15/25 at 1:17 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
Everything you think you know about God was relayed to you by many generations of fallible men over thousands of years. Everything you think you feel about God is interpreted by a fallible mind.
And yet that’s not true.
Let me ssk you this.
Is the creator of all we behold was able to speak creation into existence with His own words somehow incapable of preserving His word faithfully so that one can not only believe it, but hinge their faith on it?
Would a God who went through the painstaking paths to deliver His own Son on a bloody cross for the salvation of mankind and deliver hope to the word out of ahis love for us somehow be unwilling or unmotivated to not be able to deliver His truth to mankind He did all that for, allowing His Son to suffer and die for nothing?
Would that same God place the fate of such an important thing as His words for mankind in the hands of men, or would his words be given to mankind even in the midst of persecution and turmoil from those who hated His word and did everything in their power to keep it from mankind for their salvation?
Such is the authorized English Bible. It comes directly from the original churches where all of this occurred, and was handed down to us through faithful believers who faced death and persecution for doing so. The devil was not victorious in stopping what God had ordained, even though he did his best to eliminate it and do his best “did God really say?”
Posted on 11/15/25 at 1:38 pm to theballguy
People just need a moral conscience where everyone has basic agreement on right versus wrong. For example, stealing is stealing doesn't matter if it's a dollar or a million dollars there's no relative difference. Until we agree on that not sure where we're headed as a country. Hell, I'm convinced a good 10 to 15%, believe it's all right to frick children. There's no coming back from that.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 1:46 pm to Mike da Tigah
quote:
Would that same God place the fate of such an important thing as His words for mankind in the hands of men
Idk. Why don’t you ask him?
I would start by reading the acts of the apostles.
1. Acts 1:8 — “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in
Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
1. Matthew 28:19–20 — “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them… and teaching them to observe all I have commanded you
2. Acts 10:42 — “He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead.”
This post was edited on 11/15/25 at 2:28 pm
Posted on 11/15/25 at 4:25 pm to Mike da Tigah
quote:
Is the creator of all we behold was able to speak creation into existence with His own words somehow incapable of preserving His word faithfully so that one can not only believe it, but hinge their faith on it?
Well, if that were the case, you would think that the Creator’s word would align with what we observe in the natural world. However, the Bible speaks of (among other questionable things) a global flood that destroyed all but a small group of life and largely shaped the landscape of Earth today.
There’s not a mainstream branch of history or science that supports this absurdity - but people who lived in biblical times wouldn’t have known any better.
Now I have no doubt that you condemn any evidence that contradicts your faith. And, well, that’s what pretty much what all religions do. That’s why Christians begat Christians, Muslims begat Muslims, Hindus begat Hindus, etc. People have their minds fortified by their family and/or culture at a young age and rarely do they change regardless of any evidence presented to them.
I’ve seen it firsthand all over the world.
quote:
Would a God who went through the painstaking paths to deliver His own Son on a bloody cross for the salvation of mankind and deliver hope to the word out of ahis love for us somehow be unwilling or unmotivated to not be able to deliver His truth to mankind He did all that for, allowing His Son to suffer and die for nothing?
It seems God was a lot more willing to make his presence known before cameras, video, modern science, and global communication.
It’s easier for such stories to proliferate through primitive cultures by hearsay and tradition.
quote:
Would that same God place the fate of such an important thing as His words for mankind in the hands of men, or would his words be given to mankind even in the midst of persecution and turmoil from those who hated His word and did everything in their power to keep it from mankind for their salvation?
Is this why Islam is presently running Christianity (which has about a 600 year head start) off the map and is poised to replace it as the dominant religion in the world in about 50 years? Is God on the side of Muslims? Is the Quran his word? How can Muslims attack the World Trade Center twice and then have one of their adherents elected mayor of the fricking city - all within the lifetime of the average American? That would seem to be damn near impossible - but it happened. That’s the closest thing to a religious miracle that I have seen.
If there’s a God, I’m a hell of a lot more convinced he’s blowing wind in the sails of Islam than Christianity.
This post was edited on 11/15/25 at 5:11 pm
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