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re: The battle of religion and freedom, between church and grace
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:07 pm to Guntoter1
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:07 pm to Guntoter1
quote:
So you consider Catholics part of the body of Christ?
only the ones that are apart of the Church that dont actually believe in the Church teachings...
0
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:17 pm to HillbillyTiger
quote:Likewise
Nice give and take. I appreciate it.
quote:Well, considering the EOC shares a similar history to the RCC until around the time of the schism, I'd say she left the Scriptures very early on, the same as the RCC. Leaving the Scriptures just means embracing error over and against the Scriptures. Error, by itself, doesn't mean that a church ceases to be a true church.
As to this:
quote:
The Reformation went back to the scriptures as given by God through the Apostles.
Where and when do you assert the Orthodox Church “left the Scriptures”?
I'd argue that the EOC is a severely corrupt church but I'm struggling to say it, in its totality, is not a true branch of the Church of Christ. The Council of Jerusalem made a similar condemnation to Rome of justification by faith alone, but it was a regional council and did not pronounce an anathema on the biblical doctrine of justification.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:19 pm to Guntoter1
quote:Not any longer. While there are points in history where it's likely that the RCC broke far enough away from the truth that she could have been considered cut off, I take the safer approach by saying it was at the Council of Trent when she cut herself off officially, when she anathematized the gospel of justification by faith alone.
So you consider Catholics part of the body of Christ?
I believe there are true believers--saved Christians--that are currently part of the RCC, but I believe if they are saved, they are saved in spite of the RCC.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:21 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Failed? No. It was a practical evolution that deviated from what God ordained but the Church was still the Church, even in spite of the incorrect governmental structure.
Let me review what we have discussed.
We both agree that the church has a Governing structure and that it has the authority to interpret scripture.
Which means that if the early true Presbyterian style church that existed for the first hundred years changed the Governmental structure of the church, it had the authority to do so.
Correct?
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:23 pm to Guntoter1
quote:"Having the authority"? No. No one has the authority to chase after error.
Let me review what we have discussed.
We both agree that the church has a Governing structure and that it has the authority to interpret scripture.
Which means that if the early true Presbyterian style church that existed for the first hundred years changed the Governmental structure of the church, it had the authority to do so.
Correct?
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:23 pm to Mike da Tigah
In the US there is no battle. Secularism and bureaucracy have won.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:25 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I'd argue that the EOC is a severely corrupt church
quote:
I'd say she left the Scriptures very early on
Those are profound statements without even one example to support your opinion. At least give a concrete example.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:25 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
"Having the authority"? No. No one has the authority to chase after error.
Error according to who?
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:27 pm to HillbillyTiger
quote:Their view on icons, theosis, and justification by works are examples I tend to point to.
Those are profound statements without even one example to support your opinion. At least give a concrete example
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:28 pm to Guntoter1
quote:The Scriptures.
Error according to who?
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:34 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The Scriptures.
But you said that the church interprets the scriptures. They are the final authority over the preachers. The elders who are the governing structure of the church make sure that the preachers don’t teach error that contradicts the Bible.
The elders make sure that the Bible is followed.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:38 pm to Guntoter1
quote:The preachers/elders have the obligation to study the Scriptures and to be corrected by them. That which the Church binds and looses only does so according to what is already bound and loosed in Heaven. If the Church rules falsely, that is not bound in Heaven. The authority is in and by the Scriptures and must constantly be reforming itself by the scriptures.
But you said that the church interprets the scriptures. They are the final authority over the preachers. The elders who are the governing structure of the church make sure that the preachers don’t teach error that contradicts the Bible.
The elders make sure that the Bible is followed.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:40 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The preachers/elders have the obligation to study the Scriptures and to be corrected by them. That which the Church binds and looses only does so according to what is already bound and loosed in Heaven. If the Church rules falsely, that is not bound in Heaven. The authority is in and by the Scriptures and must constantly be reforming itself by the scriptures.
But if the church is the ruling authority(the final word) how do we know when they “rule falsely”?
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:46 pm to theballguy
Christian’s don’t claim you need Saving. Jesus Christ did that. Read John 3:1-15.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:47 pm to Guntoter1
quote:On earth, we may not know, at least not until reform happens. There is no infallible ruling authority on earth; the Scriptures are the only infallible rule and authority, and all error will be revealed by God in Heaven.
But if the church is the ruling authority(the final word) how do we know when they “rule falsely”?
Posted on 11/15/25 at 9:56 pm to WheyCheddar
Exactly, faith is hoping there is something after life and mostly just a feel good for themselves and that is ok.
The 10 commandments are basic rules we should all live by weather you belive or not.
Unfortunately, those that truly believe do not follow these teachings and this shows as hiprocracy in todays world.
This is why religions are losing followers.
The 10 commandments are basic rules we should all live by weather you belive or not.
Unfortunately, those that truly believe do not follow these teachings and this shows as hiprocracy in todays world.
This is why religions are losing followers.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:04 pm to PurpleCrush
quote:Hate to break it to you, but if there is no God, then there is no ultimate law-giver, and if there's no ultimate law-giver, there is no ultimate law, even the 10 commandments. Without God, all morality and moral codes are nothing but opinions and preferences made up in the minds of men with no objective truth to them. If that's the case, there is no real "should".
The 10 commandments are basic rules we should all live by weather you belive or not.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:10 pm to FooManChoo
You do you, and I'll be me.
Hiprocracy is real with religion is all im saying.
Hiprocracy is real with religion is all im saying.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:13 pm to PurpleCrush
quote:Well, I think we all should "do" what Christ wants and believe in Him for salvation. There is no salvation by any other name, and since you and I are both sinners, we both need forgiveness in Jesus. Put your trust in Him, friend.
You do you, and I'll be me.
quote:Agreed, but that's because we're all sinners. That's not a problem with Christianity; that's a problem with us.
Hiprocracy is real with religion is all im saying.
Posted on 11/15/25 at 10:13 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
On earth, we may not know, at least not until reform happens. There is no infallible ruling authority on earth; the Scriptures are the only infallible rule and authority, and all error will be revealed by God in Heaven
So you admit you may be in error.
You may not think you are but you admit “we may not know” “there is no infallible ruling authority on earth.”
Interesting….
I believe Christ left us a church that is his authority. It is his steward while he is absent. He gave that power to men.
Men who are sinners.
I am impressed by your logic and knowledge. You have studied much and I believe you are sincere in your belief.
You are the most rational and logical person I have ever debated.
I sympathize with your understanding of the early church even though I put more weight on the early church fathers than you must. I believe that the early church was very Catholic but understandably simple at the time.
Good night
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