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re: Tariffs are bad--I hope Trump really is a free trader and all tariffs disappear
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:18 pm to buckeye_vol
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:18 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
And that is THEIR problem. THEIR policies largely harm THEIR citizens. So then they want to buy our superior products and invest in our superior companies.
No it isn’t just their problem, that’s quite frankly silly.
The faulty assumption underlying all these kinds of statements is that China is engaging in these strategies for protectionist purposes. They are engaging these strategies for predatory purposes.
Their goal is to target industries, undercut prices, grow market share and scale, then own the market and raise prices. In a lot of these industrial sectors, barriers to entry are enormous (environmental regs/capital investment). And you are never going to get the latter if investors know the chinese will just subsidize and undercut you on price if you try to enter a market they want to own.
So can we please stop with this nonsense?
This post was edited on 7/7/18 at 12:33 pm
2
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:20 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:Again, who is most affected by reciprocal tariffs? Economic reality will slap China in the face much faster and much harder than the USA. You can know the strategy all you want, but you can't escape the trap unless you cry uncle. This is one instance where I think Trump 'telegraphing' the strategy makes complete sense.
But my point is that if the strategy is to institute bad policies with negative effects, with the hope that it will only be a temporary sacrifice, then letting everybody know that seems like it would give everybody else incentive to holdout longer than they would if they didn’t know the strategy.
Keep in mind, there is more than tariffs at stake here. China is particularly unfair to foreign companies wanting to do business in their country. Forced joint-ventures not only with competitors but with Chinese companies. People tend to think of IP theft as being computer-based, but they steal engineering technology all of the time. Hell, some companies won't use their best technology even if they decide to do business in China because they know it will be stolen. That's some stupid shite, especially when it results in waste of resources or negative impact to the environment.
China is likely betting the political outcry by unpatriotic economic dumbasses will force a rollback on the USA's side while the Communist government has no such opposition from its citizenry. If you believe in free trade and free peoples, support the tariffs.
Why do you hate freedom and the environment?
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:21 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
"Ultimately that's what you want, you want tariff free, no barriers, and you want no subsides because you have some countries subsidizing industries and that's not fair," Trump said. "So you go tariff free, you go barrier free, you go subsidy free, that's the way you learned at the Wharton School of Finance."
This is a quote from trump at G7. He was ready to eliminate all tariffs across the board but the EU wouldn’t go for it.
Business Insider
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:24 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:I'm sorry. Are you saying that a foreign country putting a tariff on our product harms the foreign country's citizens? Because...something something...then they want to buy our products?
And that is THEIR problem. THEIR policies largely harm THEIR citizens. So then they want to buy our superior products and invest in our superior companies.
You'll have to connect the dots for me, because you're either a genius and I need to learn from you or you're a moron.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:26 pm to RoyalWe
quote:
Keep in mind, there is more than tariffs at stake here. China is particularly unfair to foreign companies wanting to do business in their country. Forced joint-ventures not only with competitors but with Chinese companies. People tend to think of IP theft as being computer-based, but they steal engineering technology all of the time. Hell, some companies won't use their best technology even if they decide to do business in China because they know it will be stolen. That's some stupid shite, especially when it results in waste of resources or negative impact to the environment.
This x10000
The “free trade” warriors who get mad when we put tariffs on China but have no plan to combat their unfair trade practices that have been going unchecked for years crack me up. We can trade short term pain if it ultimately leads to better conditions for American companies in China. I can’t think of any other way to really put pressure on them to change. I’m open to other ideas but I just haven’t seen anything put forward.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:27 pm to Turbeauxdog
quote:So? They are one of the oldest civilizations with 18.1% of the world’s population, yet their GDP isn’t still only 15% of the world’s gdp and 14% of the world’s market capitalization.
Yeah China is struggling, gone from shithole to 2nd largest economy in how many years?
In other words, on a per capita basis, our GDP is 6.8 times China’s and our market capitalization is 10.6 times China’s. They may be the second largest economy, but given the sheer population, they’re not even average, and they pale in comparison to the US.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:29 pm to I B Freeman
Much like the broken window analogy, how do we quantify the amount of products we never sold in the past because of other country’s tariffs? How much has it cost us to just sit by and let them restrict our products entering their country because they wanted to either protect their domestic producers or fund their government by taxing our products? If tariffs are so terrible for us, why have they been working for them all this time?
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:31 pm to RebelExpress38
quote:
We can trade short term pain if it ultimately leads to better conditions for American companies in China. I can’t think of any other way to really put pressure on them to change.
This is where the Chinese are testing democracy. They slapped tariffs on products that come from Trump country hoping the electorate and press will put pressure on Trump.
Problem is his base would lose an arm for him.
As long as Dems and the MSM stay out of the way, the Chinese will be brought to heel.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:33 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
The Trump administration seems to be saying they are starting this trade war with a goal of reducing tariffs.
The stated goal of fair trade is to reduce tariffs and combat product dumping.
Free trade isn’t exactly beneficial if our trade partners don’t also practice it.
Not to sound like an arse, but China has a lot to lose either way. If they capitulate to Trump, other countries will also get in line to fight their protectionist policies and intellectual property theft. If they don’t, they lose a lot of access to the most lucrative consumer market in the world.
I understand the importance of rapid development for China, but they have to play the same rules as everyone else. In many ways, they don’t. We need to solidify a mutually beneficial relationship there.
This post was edited on 7/7/18 at 12:38 pm
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:34 pm to Jack Bauers HnK
quote:If you would just pay attention you would have learned that their putting tariffs on our products makes people want to BUY MORE because the PRICES ARE HIGHER.
Much like the broken window analogy, how do we quantify the amount of products we never sold in the past because of other country’s tariffs? How much has it cost us to just sit by and let them restrict our products entering their country because they wanted to either protect their domestic producers or fund their government by taxing our products? If tariffs are so terrible for us, why have they been working for them all this time?
It's called elasticity of dumbass.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:34 pm to BobBoucher
It is a myth that we do not impose tariffs today. We have literally hundreds of anti dumping tariffs on our books now that politically powerful industries have gotten imposed on their foreign competitors.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:35 pm to I B Freeman
Either we all have tariffs are we all have none.
We can not continue to be the one getting the shaft on EVERYTHING.
We can not continue to be the one getting the shaft on EVERYTHING.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:36 pm to buckeye_vol
Is that supposed to contradict my statement?
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:38 pm to dewster
Free trade must be a 2 way street. China steals 95% of everything they have from us especially when it comes to tech and they expect us to just take it. Enough is enough, if they want to move up in world standing, they have to quit the bullshite and play by the rules or pay the price. If any other country did this we wouldn’t stand for it, but since it’s china they get a pass somehow.
I wish people would stop calling it free trade if only one side takes away tariffs. That’s not free trade at all.
I wish people would stop calling it free trade if only one side takes away tariffs. That’s not free trade at all.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:39 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
We have literally hundreds of anti dumping tariffs on our books now that politically powerful industries have gotten imposed on their foreign competitors.
I don’t disagree, but I thought the tariffs were because of the Chinese dumping the cheap steel were practicing poor trade somehow. In other words, I don’t think they are supposed to be dumping it to begin with. Then come the tariffs. At least that’s what I recall.
This post was edited on 7/7/18 at 12:40 pm
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:40 pm to Turbeauxdog
quote:
The faulty assumption underlying all these kinds of statements is that China is engaging in these strategies for protectionist purposes. They are engaging these strategies for predatory purposes. Their goal is to target industries, undercut prices, grow market share and scale, then own the market and raise prices. In a lot of these industrial sectors, barriers to entry are enormous (environmental regs/capital investment). And you are never going to get the latter if investors know the chinese will just subsidize and undercut you on price if you try to enter a market they want to own.
True. And it's for the purpose of them controlling the world.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:47 pm to RoyalWe
quote:Yes. Tarrifs increase the costs of the goods and services they buy, whether they are international or domestic.
Are you saying that a foreign country putting a tariff on our product harms the foreign country's citizens?
quote:It’s a tax. And either you buy the international product with a higher price because of the tax, or you buy the domestic product that is at a lower cost without the tax but higher prices than the international products without the tax.
You'll have to connect the dots for me, because you're either a genius and I need to learn from you or you're a moron.
Here is a simplified example:
1. Product A costs $100 to buy from the US without a tarriff with the $10 profit for the seller with $3 being the absolute lowest profit worth selling.
2. Product A costs $120 to buy domestically with a $10 profit for the seller with the same $3 profit limit.
What would a consumer be more likely to choose? Product A obviously so to protect their “domestic” products, a country puts a 25% tarriff on the US product. So then now:
1. Product A costs $125 to buy from the US if they want the $10 margin, or $120 if they are willing to take $5 margin to have the same price as the domestic sellers, and maybe they are as willing to go low as $118 ($3 profit) to still sell the product.
2. Meanwhile domestic sellers can sell Product A for some price below the US sellers, knowing that they only have to sell it at less than $118 with $113 being the lower limit.
Now the consumers went from being able to buy a product for as low as $93, but in general they could buy it for $100. Now that same product costs at its lowest $113, and likely more like $120.
So the domestic sellers benefit but the consumers have to pay substantially more.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:49 pm to Turbeauxdog
quote:I don’t know, but neither did responding to my post about “everybody knowing the strategy” with “Trump states the strategy for everyone to know.”
Is that supposed to contradict my statement?
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:52 pm to BobBoucher
quote:But something like 1% of our steel comes from China, and 77% is domestic anyways.
but I thought the tariffs were because of the Chinese dumping the cheap steel
Regardless if I’m a company that buys steel to make a product, then the costs of my business are lower to buy steel at a lower price and I can afford to sell my products to consumers at a lower price as well.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:58 pm to RoyalWe
quote:But so long as companies are made aware of these risks, then it's their prerogative whether they want to take these risks or not. I surely don't support the IP theft, but if companies are aware that this is a possibility, then it's up to them to determine whether it's worth it or not.
People tend to think of IP theft as being computer-based, but they steal engineering technology all of the time. Hell, some companies won't use their best technology even if they decide to do business in China because they know it will be stolen.
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