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Message
re: Structural/Systemic Injustice
Posted on 11/3/25 at 3:50 pm to 4cubbies
Posted on 11/3/25 at 3:50 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Of course not.
I'm not claiming she deserves to lose her housing.
You are saying "It seems like people would rather comb through Sandy's past to pinpoint mistakes that make her deserving of losing her housing."
You made that claim that in a response to my post. One would assume then, that I'm one of the "people" you're referencing.
The OP author issued a fact-lacking story. That lack renders pragmatic, unemotional analysis virtually impossible. I find, more often than not, when such accounts are presented in that way, it is done deliberately.
That is a dig at the author, not at you, btw.
Emotions drive compassionate behavior, and often, great acts of goodness (or the reverse). A mom's unconditional love for her kids being an example. Some folks are more inclined in that way than others. I could give you a litany of examples in my world, as you likely could in yours. However, the author, in my opinion, is manipulating those inclinations.
E.g., We are left by the author to suppose Sandy's job is unreplicatable in a location with adjacent more affordable housing. That expected supposition raises multiple questions from a problem solving, performance improvement standpoint.
When I see a problem (like Sandy's) my inclination is to solve it where possible, rather than commensurate. I do that, and do it successfully when others don't see a path forward. It's in my DNA.
So for me, the Sandy story has nothing whatsoever to do with her "deserving to lose her housing." It has to do with her deserving sound advise and alternative solutions. Focus on outcome rather than process doesn't help her one bit. Yet that is the author's emphasis. It won't lead to solution other than "bad feels" for poor hopeless Sandy.
And that is my problem with it.
0
Posted on 11/3/25 at 4:03 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
4cubbies
Is it just to confiscate the fruit of one’s labor and give it to another?
Posted on 11/3/25 at 4:05 pm to 4cubbies
Once you remove God, you can blame everything on Him and each other.
This post was edited on 11/3/25 at 4:06 pm
Posted on 11/3/25 at 4:13 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Structural/Systemic Injustice
quote:
4cubbies
When Michelle Obama was admitted to Princeton with what she acknowledged were mediocre SAT scores, what kind of injustice was that?
Systemic? Or, structural?
Posted on 11/3/25 at 4:16 pm to el Gaucho
quote:
Why the Jordans don’t be free?
Mr. L'Zanya?
Posted on 11/3/25 at 4:26 pm to 4cubbies
I would say that in many cases the system is working as intended.
We WANT life to be hard for people that don't work or otherwise act as a net negative within our societal structure.
This puts pressure on people to be productive (work + reproductive) members of society.
We WANT life to be hard for people that don't work or otherwise act as a net negative within our societal structure.
This puts pressure on people to be productive (work + reproductive) members of society.
Posted on 11/3/25 at 4:32 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Price per square foot doesn't determine what is affordable. The relationship between local incomes and local housing costs determines affordable housing. Affordability can't be applied globally. What is affordable in NYC relative to average incomes is likely not affordable for most of the rest of the country.
quote:Really?
Also simple facts.
Can you show me markets antithetically divergent from national median income and housing price?
Come on Cubs, don't be deliberately obtuse. You are better than that.
However, you're correct. Price/sq.ft. does not, of itself, determine affordability. Lending rates and other factors -- utilities, insurance, etc. certainly play a role.
Nonetheless, I'm a glass half full person.
It's why I'm inevitably short with Americans who want to dwell on how terribly rough life is in the 21st century United States. Such is the focus generating "can't do" hopeless attitudes amongst the very folks you're presumably trying to help. Register that. It's important. Hopelessness is never a path to success.
LIFE IS NOT FAIR!
Full egality in an uncloned uncontrolled group is not possible ... EVER!
Presumption of structural/systemic injustices within a free society and democratic republic may or may not be misplaced. Regardless, if such injustices exist, they must be overcome. Not by negative focus on them, but rather by working harder within their constraints to attain success. Assumption of hopelessness due to an unjust system will not lead to maximized outcome ... EVER!
American Exceptionalism is not born of the hopeless.
It is born of the hopeful.
American Exceptionalism is not born of those who see impossibilities or focus on impediments.
American Exceptionalism is born of those who see possibilities or focus on opportunities.
Posted on 11/3/25 at 5:04 pm to Pragmatist2025
quote:
Is it just to confiscate the fruit of one’s labor and give it to another?
No. Nothing like this was even hinted at let along proposed in this thread so not sure why you're asking.
Posted on 11/3/25 at 5:05 pm to CastleBravo
quote:
I would say that in many cases the system is working as intended.
I absolutely agree.
quote:
We WANT life to be hard for people that don't work or otherwise act as a net negative within our societal structure.
This is not how the system is intended to work.
Posted on 11/3/25 at 5:18 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Can you show me markets antithetically divergent from national median income and housing price?
Per Google:
San Jose
San Francisco
Los Angeles
San Diego
NYC
Montana
Pittsburgh
Detroit
St. Louis
Cleveland
Toledo
McAllen, TX
Birmingham
Oklahoma City
Hawaii
quote:
You are better than that.
Really? After your little OP is just being emotional comment? Such a cop out.
quote:
Nonetheless, I'm a glass half full person.
It's why I'm inevitably short with Americans who want to dwell on how terribly rough life is in the 21st century United States.
Rolling my eyes hard at this. What a ridiculous attempt to stifle discussion.
quote:
Such is the focus generating "can't do" hopeless attitudes amongst the very folks you're presumably trying to help. Register that. It's important. Hopelessness is never a path to success.
Who is hopeless? I volunteer to help everyone all the time and I spend my days with the people who belong to "a certain demographic" that the majority of this board (and society at large) scoffs at and looks down their noses at because they were accidentally born in different situations. Assuming or accusing strangers to be hopeless because they are poor or homeless or whatever is mighty presumptuous and privileged of you.
quote:
LIFE IS NOT FAIR!
Do the people who complain about paying taxes know this? Or is that different?
quote:
but rather by working harder within their constraints to attain success.
boot straps solve everything?
American Exceptionalism is striving to improve society for everyone, particularly those who have the least societal influence but could benefit from the help the most.
I'm waiting for you to unironically tell me we are a country built on Christian values next.
Posted on 11/3/25 at 5:23 pm to 4cubbies
Based on available data today whites did not subject blacks to a sufficient degree of injustice to make the majority compatible with western civilization.
Again, based on data.
Again, based on data.
Posted on 11/3/25 at 6:30 pm to 4cubbies
quote:Per Google ... what?
Per Google:
San Jose
San Francisco
Los Angeles
San Diego
NYC
Read the post you're responding to again.
You are honestly claiming median incomes in those locales are down vs the US?
quote:Again, read the post you're responding to very carefully.
OP is just being emotional comment?
quote:Remember, emotions can be additive or subtractive. With significant restraint, I'll just say that kind of response is bilaterally subtractive.
Rolling my eyes hard at this.
quote:Good Lord.
What a ridiculous attempt to stifle discussion.
Are you kidding me?
quote:ARE YOU KIDDING ME????!!
Who is hopeless?
Who is hopeless? Seriously??
How about the 16y/o kid who murders a 30y/o mom because she didn't want to let him jack her car with her two infants locked in car seats.
You think maybe ... just maybe ... that kid had limited personal aspiration or hope??
quote:Here's the deal Cubs ... you are "a certain demographic." Are you prepared to go there?
"a certain demographic"
quote:You did not read a damn thing you were responding to!
boot straps solve everything?
In a way I'm not surprised, but my goodness, that is awful. Nothing about "advice" .... ?
Posted on 11/3/25 at 6:38 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Come on Cubs, don't be deliberately obtuse. You are better than that.
JFC - No ... a thousand times no she is not
Posted on 11/3/25 at 6:47 pm to dafif
quote:Au contraire, I work hard to assume the best. However, given this thread, I'm wavering and I hate that.
JFC - No ... a thousand times no she is not
Posted on 11/3/25 at 6:52 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
We WANT life to be hard for people that don't work or otherwise act as a net negative within our societal structure.
This is not how the system is intended to work.
Some people are just lazy. Hand feeding them only teaches them to continue to be lazy.
Not everyone is a Champion. Giving them participation trophies won't help either.
Posted on 11/3/25 at 6:57 pm to NC_Tigah
Maybe I misunderstood?
I interpreted this:
to be you requesting markets where the relationships between median income and housing prices diverged significantly from the national norms.
Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but I find your posts on this page of the thread to be remarkably condescending, which is unusual for you.
NC, you haughtily announced that you're essentially above discussions like this one because you're an optimist and you only want to focus on the outstanding righteous perfection of American society.
Sounds like that kid had survival instincts. It also sounds like you underestimate the human spirit.
Oh wait - I mixed up the assailant and victim here. It's difficult to know what is actual hopelessness and what is lack of impulse control and a fully-formed brain in a situation like that.
You are one of the very few posters here that I like and respect, but I have a feeling "going there" would be bilaterally subtractive.
Are we typing in tongues? I read and responded to the words you posted.
discussing structural injustices doesn't foster can't do attitudes.
I interpreted this:
quote:
Can you show me markets antithetically divergent from national median income and housing price?
to be you requesting markets where the relationships between median income and housing prices diverged significantly from the national norms.
quote:
Remember, emotions can be additive or subtractive. With significant restraint, I'll just say that kind of response is bilaterally subtractive.
Maybe I'm being too sensitive, but I find your posts on this page of the thread to be remarkably condescending, which is unusual for you.
quote:
Good Lord.
Are you kidding me?
NC, you haughtily announced that you're essentially above discussions like this one because you're an optimist and you only want to focus on the outstanding righteous perfection of American society.
quote:
How about the 16y/o kid who murders a 30y/o mom because she didn't want to let him jack her car with her two infants locked in car seats.
You think maybe ... just maybe ... that kid had limited personal aspiration or hope??
Sounds like that kid had survival instincts. It also sounds like you underestimate the human spirit.
Oh wait - I mixed up the assailant and victim here. It's difficult to know what is actual hopelessness and what is lack of impulse control and a fully-formed brain in a situation like that.
quote:
Her.e's the deal Cubs ... you are "a certain demographic." Are you prepared to go there?
You are one of the very few posters here that I like and respect, but I have a feeling "going there" would be bilaterally subtractive.
quote:
You did not read a damn thing you were responding to!
Are we typing in tongues? I read and responded to the words you posted.
discussing structural injustices doesn't foster can't do attitudes.
This post was edited on 11/3/25 at 7:15 pm
Posted on 11/4/25 at 5:54 am to 4cubbies
quote:There you go again.
NC, you haughtily announced that you're essentially above discussions like this one because you're an optimist and you only want to focus on the outstanding righteous perfection of American society.
Your quip does not remotely resemble my POV, expressed or otherwise.
You asked if I was talking in tongues?
Indeed, perhaps i am. Because when your takeaway from an exchange of ours attributes an "outstanding righteous perfection of American society" as my POV, it's definitely indicative of a breakdown in communication somewhere.
I've never contended American society is perfect. Far from it. I do contend our system offers the most opportunity for upward mobility in history. I would contend that is a very good thing. I do also contend that completely enveloping one's self in a perceived world of structural/systemic injustice is generally a hindrance to that opportunity.
E.g., You say "discussing structural injustices doesn't foster can't do attitudes." Of course it doesn't. Nor was that ever asserted, at least not by me. My contention is rolling oneself in the belief that Structural/Systemic Injustice is ubiquitous and often insurmountable is an invitation to underperformance, failure, and . . . . . . . hopelessness.
True story:
We were interviewing applicants for a management position in our business office. It was a compressed process so, our practice manager would sometimes have two or three candidates waiting to be called in. About midway through the process, a Black applicant arrived. He apparently ended up awaiting his interview behind a couple of White guys. His interview went poorly. We ended up hiring a fantastic woman who also happened to be Black. Meanwhile the fellow went on to have a similar experience and rejection at a smaller practice across town. I know that, because in the aftermath I crossed paths with a friend from that practice at a Christmas Party. Turns out, during his interview with my friend (who is also Black btw), the guy said he'd talked with us, but had no chance getting the position since he wasn't a White man. The irony was thick. (At the time I knew nothing about his interview, but I had already worked with the lady we did hire) When I told Scott who we'd actually brought to the position, he had a coke-out-the-nose guffaw.
I never met the interview guy personally, but according to our PM he was a good candidate on paper. So in his case, it seems the perception of omnipresent racism and racial injustice was a personal impediment. At least it was in those two instances.
Posted on 11/4/25 at 5:57 am to 4cubbies
Life isn’t fair and it’s not easy.
Of course people are born into different circumstances, but the beauty of a republican America is you can rise up. You just have to put in work.
Now Dems and lazy parents might make someone a victim but they can be saved and fixed through hard work.
You know where you are stuck in your class for life? In a communist country.
Of course people are born into different circumstances, but the beauty of a republican America is you can rise up. You just have to put in work.
Now Dems and lazy parents might make someone a victim but they can be saved and fixed through hard work.
You know where you are stuck in your class for life? In a communist country.
Posted on 11/4/25 at 10:10 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
I do also contend that completely enveloping one's self in a perceived world of structural/systemic injustice is generally a hindrance to that opportunity.
This is where the communication breakdown happens. Are you accusing me of completely enveloping myself in a perceived world of structural injustice? Why even mention this?
Re: your anecdote - people make bullshite excuses for why they don't get jobs or promotions all the time. Have you not seen any of the number of posts here from white men who swear they didn't get a job or promotion because they are white men and not because they are aggressively average?
Posted on 11/4/25 at 10:15 am to 4cubbies
Let this garbage thread die already. You are intellectually stunted.
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