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re: Stephen Hawking Dead - Hawking Radiation Proves Existence of God
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:39 pm to Azkiger
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:39 pm to Azkiger
quote:Thank you for the clarification.
With regards to the bit about faith being the conviction of things not seen. I was expanding the "seen" reference to anything experienced, essentially all of your senses.
I said it previously but what I've experienced in my life is consistent with what the Bible teaches. Those experiences confirm in my mind the trustworthiness of the source which in turn helps me trust what it says regarding what I have not personally experienced. We put trust in others all the time and that trust is dependent on many factors. I believe the Bible testifies to the truth and I believe it as such.
quote:If you'd like me to alter my statement to say that a belief in a god is a necessary starting point for the existence of an objective moral standard, then I can do that. I believe that the God of the Bible is the only one that adequately explains moral reality as we know it, but we can progress to that point over time if you'd prefer.
Factual. The claim that without capital g God we wouldn't have objective morality is not a factual claim, yet its often made as if it were.
quote:I prefer to use the term "truthful" rather than "factual", as "factual" implies some sort of definitive proof that everyone can get on board with and few if any reject outright. I'm proclaiming my beliefs as truthful.
You and I have already had a discussion about this, and you admitted that your claim couldn't be proven or falsified. But that same admission doesn't seem to have carried over to this thread, where you're back to pretending its factual again.
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Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:39 pm to FooManChoo
quote:How convenient for God.
The point of Romans 1 is to say that deep down, everyone knows there's a God but everyone who doesn't worship God (or worships something else) is suppressing the truth about God and exchanging it for a lie, so no one is left without an excuse.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:41 pm to lsufanz
quote:
Does this apply to those who have died since, but before the preachers, witnesses, missionaries had the opportunity to share the gospel with them?
I believe God has given or will give everybody a chance to choose. You or I do not know how people are given the opportunity to hear the gospel. God could speak directly to someone who has never had a preacher or missionary present them the gospel. That's how good I believe God is. But it's also why I believe it's important to profess Jesus whenever and wherever I can, as commanded to do so by Jesus himself. Y'all say it's shoving my religion down your throat, but I say it may be the only time you are presented with the opportunity to hear the Good News.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:42 pm to Azkiger
quote:By the metric that all "goodness" is ultimately measured by: God's own character.
By what metric?
quote:Yes.
Remember where you believe your sense of good and evil came from... God.
quote:All anyone can do is judge based on God's objective (outside of humanity) standard or our own subjective standards. Since our subjective standards aren't very useful (because they vary from person to person), I'll stick with the one who created me and who has the power to destroy me and everything else (because I deserve it).
Of course God would wire you in such a way that you'd think he's a great guy. Based on your own belief system you have no way to tell whether or not God is a good or evil being. All you can do is judge God by the standard God gave to you.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:46 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Only if the confirmation is unreasonable and/or selective, ignoring that which denies or contradicts what we believe.
Thus the term "confirmation bias"
quote:I disagree but that goes back to a long and drawn-out discussion of each one of the evidences you seem eager to show to prove how the Bible is wrong in this regard. I've done it before and I don't have the energy to do that again along with discussing the philosophical aspects of what I believe. I'll offer to you what I've offered to others: if you really want to discuss that stuff, I'll give you an email address you can use to get that started.
The fact is that many of the views you have expressed are fundamentally incompatible with what we know to be true about science and history. The world around us absolutely does not confirm the Genesis creation account or the flood account for instance. Our planet could not exist as it currently does if either story were true.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:47 pm to Lg
quote:Fair enough, although I'm not sure how one would decipher this God from others that one may have heard of without some explanation and or indoctrination.
You or I do not know how people are given the opportunity to hear the gospel. God could speak directly to someone who has never had a preacher or missionary present them the gospel.
quote:I never said any such thing.
Y'all say it's shoving my religion down your throat, but I say it may be the only time you are presented with the opportunity to hear the Good News.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:48 pm to lsufanz
quote:
How convenient for God.
Convenience is a cornerstone for religion. When something they believe becomes outdated, they just shift and pretend that it's always been that way.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:50 pm to lsufanz
quote:Yes. Consciences can be seared over time, though, due to our fallen nature, which leads some people to think "good" is "bad" and vice versa. It's why people like Hitler can sleep at night knowing what they've done.
and by "rebellion" you include any behavior that is inconsistent with our conscience.
quote:It's not as simple as reducing all of guilt down to a single action. All of us break God's law all the time, by both what we do and by what we don't do. If that kid ever hated someone else for having more cockroaches to eat than himself, he technically broke the law, according to Jesus.
So the starving kid who has never heard of Christ or God burns forever in the lake of fire for not sharing half the cockroach with his little sister.
quote:Yes, though very flawed.
By the way, does an individual with a sociopathic disorder have a conscience?
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:51 pm to Azkiger
quote:You make it sound easy. Care to give it a go and see if I can address it specifically?
Yes, but that my statement about imagining up pathways to objective morality doesn't depend upon logically inconsistent statements or whatever else to be true. Nix paradoxes and whatever else you're likely imagining up. None of those are needed for someone to imagine up a world in which they have access to objective morality.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:52 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
I responded directly to that point.
Right, and you received the response that you deserved. No need to melt about it.
You responded with the following:
quote:
Pointing your finger at someone else doesn't absolve you of anything.
My point did not reference blame Nor did it reference absolution. Your response was completely non-responsive.
You are running away from the conversation. In your mind you'll tell yourself a response is not deserved. Internally you'll pretend this is a troll job deny the reality.
But we all know the truth. You are unable to respond with an intelligent retort so you've resorted to attacking th messenger. You are running away scared.
This post was edited on 3/15/18 at 1:54 pm
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:54 pm to olgoi khorkhoi
quote:I just commented on that but the short answer is "no".
Is the sociopath blameless before God?
I kid.
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" -Romans 3:23
quote:No. A sin against an infinite and infinitely holy God requires either that infinite God to take on a finite punishment (Jesus) or a finite being (us) taking on an infinite punishment.
Will these violations of conscience by the otherwise ignorant ever be absolved through their torment?
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:56 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Not necessarily true. I believe in the freedom of volition (to act), not the freedom of the will, which is the root of all of our actions. I believe our wills are enslaved to a sinful nature and that we will always act according to that nature unless our wills are changed by God (regeneration).
And yet it violates one of the most fundamental laws governing philosophy and logic: That being that free will cannot coexist with omniscience. If even one omniscient being exists, free will is at best an illusion.
Yet, Christianity claims we have free will in the presence of an omniscient deity.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:57 pm to moneyg
quote:
My point did not reference blame Nor did it reference absolution. Your response was completely non-responsive.
Here is your post:
quote:
That's dumb. None of us get to personally veto legislation because it doesn't match our belief system. Legislation is passed by our representation, who are voted into office by us. If the will of the people (via our representative government) is to enact laws as a result of religion, that's not any bigger of a problem than laws that are a result of any other ideology. The obvious exception to this are constitutional issues.
Do I need to break this down for you?
quote:
You are running away from the conversation. In your mind you'll tell yourself a response is not deserved. Internally you'll pretend this is a troll job deny the reality.
None of that will happen. Your response is typical, and it's no more correct here than anywhere else.
quote:
attacking
quote:
You are running away scared.
Is that really what you think is happening?
Posted on 3/15/18 at 1:58 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:How so?
Kind of destroys the “god is perfection” narrative, don’t ya think?
Posted on 3/15/18 at 2:00 pm to lsufanz
quote:The first quote is a 'what-if' based on what I was responding to in an attempt to show that the argument wasn't valid. The second quote is what I believe to be true.
I'm having a difficult time seeing these as consistent thought.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 2:00 pm to Lg
quote:
I believe God has given or will give everybody a chance to choose. You or I do not know how people are given the opportunity to hear the gospel. God could speak directly to someone who has never had a preacher or missionary present them the gospel.
Wonder if God has tried to communicate with natives that live in the Rain Forest in South America? Or are they just doomed to hell?
Posted on 3/15/18 at 2:03 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:1) What's your standard for judging "absurd" in this case and why should it be valued more than a preference?
Well, if a punishment is handed down because of failure to provide sufficient evidence of its existence (god, because I find it odd to refer to a deity as a “he”), that’s pretty absurd.
2) Punishment isn't handed down simply because people don't believe in God. As I have stated previously, everyone is punished for their sins against God, whether they recognize Him as God or not.
3) It's not a case of not having sufficient evidence for the existence of God, but sufficient evidence to overturn the stubbornness and hardness of hearts of men who want to reject the existence of God because it makes them accountable for their actions.
4) Are you refusing to use God's preferred pronoun?
Posted on 3/15/18 at 2:03 pm to lsufanz
quote:
although I'm not sure how one would decipher this God from others that one may have heard of without some explanation and or indoctrination.
You are asking me about the God I believe in. I'm sure God will reveal Himself as such.
quote:
I never said any such thing.
My apologies. Many who don't believe as I say that. Didn't mean to lump you in.
Posted on 3/15/18 at 2:08 pm to FooManChoo
quote:I understand and can agree with the basic concept that none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes. What I have a hard time with is the idea that terrorizing people because of it is warranted or acceptable. As flawed as we are, even humans have managed systems of justice that are more reasonable to understand and comply with.
It's not as simple as reducing all of guilt down to a single action. All of us break God's law all the time, by both what we do and by what we don't do. If that kid ever hated someone else for having more cockroaches to eat than himself, he technically broke the law, according to Jesus.
Didn't know I was here? Sorry, no excuse.
Murdered lots of children, but managed to squeak out an arse-saving confession before croaking? Welcome aboard!
Posted on 3/15/18 at 2:13 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
If God is God, who are we to question whether or not He actually is good or evil?
Rephrased, who are we to question whether our allegiance is to a good or evil being?
Seeing as it's our allegiance at question... Yea, were in the right to question.
You have the mindset of a defeated slave.
quote:
Why worship Satan (if he were a good guy) if He has no power over God? Sounds like an exercise in futility to me.
Irrelevant to the discussion of who is good and who is evil.
quote:
Likewise, if our ability to "sense" morality through our consciences is messed up, we can't really know what "good" and "bad" really are and morality, itself, is put on shaky ground.
Messed up or not, if that's the only system we have then all we can do is our best.
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