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Message
re: Satanic Temple puts up display at Michigan Capital
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:00 pm to Fun Bunch
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:00 pm to Fun Bunch
I do not believe in God just like I do not believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I nothing them. There is no evidence whatsoever for their existence so they don't even enter my thought process.
When evidence is presented, I will look at the evidence, for anything, supernatural or otherwise, and reevaluate my thought processes.
Believers would get a lot more respect from me if they would just be honest: While they have no verifiable evidence of their claims, they still believe and if fills them with joy. There's nothing wrong with that, good for you.
But please do not try and bring forth disingenuous and ridiculous arguments. Just be honest.
I nothing them. There is no evidence whatsoever for their existence so they don't even enter my thought process.
When evidence is presented, I will look at the evidence, for anything, supernatural or otherwise, and reevaluate my thought processes.
Believers would get a lot more respect from me if they would just be honest: While they have no verifiable evidence of their claims, they still believe and if fills them with joy. There's nothing wrong with that, good for you.
But please do not try and bring forth disingenuous and ridiculous arguments. Just be honest.
2
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:01 pm to TheIndulger
quote:I can understand that position completely. No issue with it whatsoever.
Thank you for the response, but I personally don't consider the world to be evidence God exists. I tend to be more on the skeptical end of the spectrum, though.
I would be more likely to believe the world was created by some god than to believe in Christianity, though.
From a Chrtistian standpoint, the Scripture never attempts to prove the existence of God. As a starting point, it presupposes His existence and moves forward from there. Two examples are in Genesis 1:1 (In the beginning God...) and Exodus 3:14 (I AM that I AM). However, it does indicate there are two witnesses He has provided to His existence, Creation (Psalm 19:1 and Psalm 97:6) and our conscience (Romans 2:14,15).
Again, I have no issue with someone who has questions. I have questions each and every day. I am living my faith, struggling, praying, trusting and believing. It is a daily struggle.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:01 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
Interesting that to "prove" your point of a "logical fallacy," you exhort him to "disprove" other deities
You might not be as smart as I have thought in the past. That was exactly my point.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:03 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
You might not be as smart as I have thought in the past.
What you think doesn't matter
quote:
That was exactly my point.
And it was a foolish one. He wasn't asserting that other deities were false.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:03 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
Incorrect.
That is absolutely false. It is 100% on them to prove the existence of something they say exists. It is not on those saying it doesn't. They are not presenting any positive claims. This is logic at its most basic level.
There's an invisible teacup circling Uranus. Prove that it does not exist.
Do you see how stupid that argument is?
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:03 pm to TbirdSpur2010
I believe there's a gulf here in the understanding of this argument that is proving to be impossible to bridge.
Many in this thread keep asking for "proof that God doesn't exist" without understanding that asking for such is impossible. As has been stated over and over, you can't disprove a negative. This is then construed as an indication that atheists or unbelievers take it on faith that there is no God.
This is untrue, and a fundamental mis-framing of the whole idea.
How about I try some different verbiage. I won't say: "I don't believe in God."
Instead, I'll say: "I remain unconvinced by the evidence available to me that God exists."
Does this clarify the difference at all? How can I provide "proof" that God doesn't exist? There is none, by definition. All I can say is that all of the "proof" that could be available to show that God does exist seems incredibly weak to me at best, and fully absent at worst.
Many in this thread keep asking for "proof that God doesn't exist" without understanding that asking for such is impossible. As has been stated over and over, you can't disprove a negative. This is then construed as an indication that atheists or unbelievers take it on faith that there is no God.
This is untrue, and a fundamental mis-framing of the whole idea.
How about I try some different verbiage. I won't say: "I don't believe in God."
Instead, I'll say: "I remain unconvinced by the evidence available to me that God exists."
Does this clarify the difference at all? How can I provide "proof" that God doesn't exist? There is none, by definition. All I can say is that all of the "proof" that could be available to show that God does exist seems incredibly weak to me at best, and fully absent at worst.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:04 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
And it was a foolish one. He wasn't asserting that other deities were false.
He is asserting that his God is real and telling others to prove he is not.
I was simply doing the same thing. Prove those other deities don't exist. If you can't, then they do exist.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:12 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Believers would get a lot more respect from me if they would just be honest: While they have no verifiable evidence of their claims, they still believe and if fills them with joy. There's nothing wrong with that, good for you. But please do not try and bring forth disingenuous and ridiculous arguments. Just be honest.
I disagree. There is a ton of evidence to support Christ. You just have to do a little research. I will admit that it does take faith. But after seeing all the evidence the faith part is very easy. Which is different from being an Atheist which requires 100% blind faith due to zero evidence and solely relies on attacking other people's faith to exist.
Fun Bunch, have you seen this film? It is about an Atheist who tried to proof God did not exist. Will you watch it? Care to discuss or debate his views from the documentary?
LINK
Kind of going around in circles discussing this right now. We can talk about this guys evidence for Christ if you want too.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:15 pm to BayouBlitz
quote:But you are taking it on faith unless you are omniscient or omnipresent or both.
He's making the argument that by not having proof that God doesn't exist, means I'm taking it on faith that there is no God.
If you don't know for certain that there is no God, then any affirmative statement about God's existence other than "I don't know" would be based on faith. To say "I don't believe God exists" or even "God doesn't exist" is a statement of faith, since you cannot know it for certain.
quote:Science is merely a tool that helps us understand the natural world; it isn't a worldview in and of itself. In reality, your worldview--which appears to be based on materialistic naturalism--dictates to you that there is nothing in existence that is outside of the natural universe, and therefore you have to reject any idea that does not conform to your worldview.
In the world I live in, driven primarily by proven science, the burden lies in proving that something is there, not that something is not there.
You don't have to prove that something does not exist, though. You just can't affirmatively state that the thing in question does not exist unless you know for certain, which you do not. If you do say that something does not exist, you have to at least prove how you know it.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:15 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Prove those other deities don't exist. If you can't, then they do exist.
I'd be cool with that
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:17 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:Uhm, no. You are not framing the problem statement correctly. Not even close.
He is asserting that his God is real...
quote:I am re-stating comments from earlier in the thread and asking those that take that position to defend it.
...and telling others to prove he is not.
Does that help you?
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:17 pm to Fun Bunch
Which one of these has the most followers (disciples) worldwide? Which one is still relevant?
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:24 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
While they have no verifiable evidence of their claims
Why do you say this? If I told you about something that happened to me that I attribute to God, would that not be verifiable? You may not think it is valid, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. That's why I always say a non-believer will never understand until they experience God themselves.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:25 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
I'll wait. Forever.
This is a waste of time. Pork chops said he had verifiable proof to back up his athiests beliefs and that's why this thread has been going on. If he would simply admit that his atheism is based on belief only and not facts, it would be over.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:28 pm to ctiger69
quote:
disagree. There is a ton of evidence to support Christ.
Please present your evidence. Do not link me to some ridiculous christian website or video. Present your verifiable, testable evidence in a cogent manner.
quote:
Which is different from being an Atheist which requires 100% blind faith due to zero evidence and solely relies on attacking other people's faith to exist.
This is false, but I'm not going to get into it. There is no faith involved in not believing in something that has no evidence.
quote:
Fun Bunch, have you seen this film? It is about an Atheist who tried to proof God did not exist. Will you watch it? Care to discuss or debate his views from the documentary?
No I have not seen it, nor will I watch. I have no interest in it. It starts with a ridiculous premise: proving that god does not exist.
quote:
Kind of going around in circles discussing this right now. We can talk about this guys evidence for Christ if you want too.
Please present your verifiable, testable evidence that Jesus is the son of God.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:28 pm to ctiger69
quote:
Which is different from being an Atheist which requires 100% blind faith due to zero evidence
You still seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the argument, based your insistence that being an Athiest is based on "100% blind faith."
As I said earlier, it would probably be easier to conceptualize that, for the sake of this debate, 99.9% of the posters writing "I don't believe in God" are in truth saying "I remain unconvinced by the evidence available to me that God exists."
By way of an example, I don't believe I can fly. By this, I mean in truth that I remain unconvinced by the evidence available to me that I'm able to fly. That evidence includes things like jumping off of my house and realizing that there's nothing I can do to compel myself to fly. There's no way I can definitively prove I can't fly, however. But my lack of belief in my ability to fly doesn't, as a corralary, mean that I have "100% blind faith" in my inability to fly; it simply means that everything I've experienced, observed, and investigated heretofore has come up empty on the "Strophie can Fly" front.
Note that this is a distinctly different argument than definitively saying "GOD DOES NOT EXIST," which, I would agree, would require the burden of proof.
This post was edited on 12/23/14 at 2:31 pm
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:29 pm to Revelator
quote:
athiests beliefs
There are no such thing as atheist beliefs.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:30 pm to Lg
quote:
Which one of these has the most followers (disciples) worldwide? Which one is still relevant?
How is that relevant?
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:31 pm to Lg
quote:
If I told you about something that happened to me that I attribute to God, would that not be verifiable?
Of course not. I don't think you understand what verifiable, testable evidence is.
I experienced the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He proved to me he does exist. Therefore he does exist.
Prove me wrong.
Posted on 12/23/14 at 2:33 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
There are no such thing as atheist beliefs.
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