re: Religious Leaders Told to 'Prepare Now' for UFO Disclosure and 'Bible-Changing' Revelation

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Which nations have done so?

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1. Brazil
2. Chile
3. Peru
4. Uruguay
5. Argentina (but not to the extent of the other South American nations mentioned)
6. France
7. UK
8. Canada
9. Australia

Many of the listed countries above have disclosed much more stuff than the US has so far. Why haven't you heard about it? Because the PTB in the US don't want us discussing this shite. It's evident in all the scientists going missing or turning up dead and also evident in this thread with people being irrationally angry about people discussing what is an obviously very important issue.

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1. Again, nobody is saying these are extraterrestrials flying from some distant planet. Most people are saying they're from here.

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I don’t know why anyone would be ruling that out based on the evidence that’s been presented.

It’s certainly not an established fact that they are from a foreign planet, but some of these craft are clearly flying around in space.

Could be subterranean, could be secret tech, some have been spotted in the ocean, could even be from alternate dimensions, but space is certainly within the range of possibilities.

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Could be subterranean, could be secret tech, some have been spotted in the ocean, could even be from alternate dimensions, but space is certainly within the range of possibilities.

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Apparently the majority of the sightings take place in, or coming out of the oceans. Because of this, word on the street is that NURO has the point on this stuff (National Underwater Reconnaissance Office). It's an agency headed by the Navy and the CIA.

Also, we are talking about things that have been observed plunging from great heights very rapidly into the ocean without even creating a splash. The ability to move faster than the speed of sound underwater. So yeah, space isn't going to be any trouble for these things either. But there seems to be an undeniable connection between the UFOs and our oceans.

I keep wondering if there aren't accesses to huge subterranean caverns that can be used as bases that are accessible under the ocean.

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This is the point.

Something as massive as aliens being left out of the bible leaves this possibility open.

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No it doesn't, at least not any more than God having different revelations to different people groups on earth. You assume that there is a fundamental difference between "aliens" and people, in terms of possibility of different revelations from God. I disagree.

In fact, I believe only the revelation provided in the Bible provides the necessary foundations for intelligibility, and a different god would not provide what is necessary for reality to be as it is.

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This is exactly why other religions from the Canaanite religions from where Judaism spread claim Christianity is wrong, mind you.

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Yes, there are competing truth claims all over the place. There is nothing new about that. The Christian seeks to show why the Christian truth claims are possible, plausible, likely, and then absolute over and against other truth claims. That's what apologetics is all about. Aliens wouldn't change this.

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Again, exactly.

Something as massive as aliens being left out of the bible leaves this possibility open.

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It doesn't, at least not any more than what other religions claim today about truth claims regarding sin, suffering, and salvation. Aliens don't get you anything new.

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See above

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Yes, see above. Aliens don't get you anything new any more than Christian pilgrims coming to America and meeting a foreign, tan-skinned people who worshipped other unknown gods.

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I didn't say that. They're illustrations to show how making the Bible a skeleton work (by leaving out aliens) would raise all sorts of questions. We could no longer rely on the Bible as a complete work describing the universe, which is a problem.

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There is no problem. Aliens do not add anything fundamentally new to what already exists, both in the Bible and in addition to competing truth claims about the universe that other religions already make. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill as far as the existence of aliens is considered.

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I'm not even talking about that, but, this, again, creates all sorts of questions.

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All questions that have a theological explanation from the Christian perspective, I would imagine.

As a Christian, I'm not concerned about the existence of alien life. It changes nothing about who God is or who we are as human beings, including our need for salvation from sin against a holy God.

You, yourself are in desperate need (whether you acknowledge it or not) of forgiveness of your sins from God, and you cannot do anything to get that forgiveness in and of yourself. You must rely upon Jesus Christ alone, trusting in His work of obedience, death, and resurrection for your sins. Evidence of alien life won't change that. Repent and believe in Jesus before it is too late for you.

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I'm not sure we're going to get anywhere in this back-and-forth as it exists currently, so I'll throw this question out there to you:

What historical and necessary Christian doctrine is immediately overturned or denied by the existence of alien life?

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Also, the Bible literally opens up talking about a talking serpent.

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The Bible read within the context of “aliens”, other dimensions accessible based on achieving a higher level of enlightenment and serpents who feed on negativity who torture humans underground and Enoch is pretty interesting.

I always ask myself if I were a God how I would explain advanced concepts like that to people who don’t understand basic science and realize Jesus probably felt like he was trying to teach two year olds who then tried to summarize the lessons after the fact to an ancient audience.

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There is no problem. Aliens do not add anything fundamentally new to what already exists,

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A superior species to humanity is a fundamental change.

I know you're trying to illogic this reality out of the conversation, but facts are facts.

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What historical and necessary Christian doctrine is immediately overturned or denied by the existence of alien life?

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If you read what I have argued, I never claimed this is automatic.

As I said on page 3

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It doesn't disprove that a god can exist, or even, theoretically, the Christian god. It does make the Bible a major issue, though, and opens up the door for justifications for religions like Islam and Mormonism, because, effectively, lots of important stuff apparently can be left out of the Bible.

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LINK

The irony of you clinging to the very source that's most affected hasn't been lost on me.

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A superior species to humanity is a fundamental change.

I know you're trying to illogic this reality out of the conversation, but facts are facts.

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The issue isn’t with the facts, but with the paradigm used to interpret the facts. You are using something else (naturalism?) rather than biblical Christianity. That would be fine and dandy if you were arguing with someone who used your own arbitrary standard, but Christians are to operate within a biblical framework.

That being the case, “superior” is not based on intelligence, but on being and purpose, as I have said multiple times now.

What makes humanity special and “superior” in God’s eyes is not intelligence, but that we were specially created to reflect God’s glory as His unique image-bearers, and the fact that God has made covenants with humans that He has not made with other creatures. This is very important in the a Christian framework and is not defeated by a creature being able to do math faster, or some other arbitrary metric you may come up with.

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If you read what I have argued, I never claimed this is automatic.

As I said on page 3

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Forgive me for not reading everything you have to say. That’s precisely why I asked, and why it is a good thing that it is easy to copy/paste. I appreciate you bearing with me on that.

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It doesn't disprove that a god can exist, or even, theoretically, the Christian god. It does make the Bible a major issue, though, and opens up the door for justifications for religions like Islam and Mormonism, because, effectively, lots of important stuff apparently can be left out of the Bible.

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If I’m understanding you correctly, your entire argument is that if the Bible doesn’t specifically mention aliens, then it opens up the door to almost anything, including Mormonism and other religions.

I don’t see how that follows.

The Bible isn’t intended to be a book of knowledge about everything in the universe. It provides the information necessary for us to be saved from our sins and to know the God who made us and saves us. The fact that it doesn’t go into detail about advanced mathematics or astronomy does not mean it opens the door for other religions to be correct due to the specific truth claims it does make.

The Bible makes specific truth claims about reality that contradict the truth claims of all other religions and worldviews. Aliens existing do not open the door for other religions to be correct any more than the existence of Mormons does.

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The irony of you clinging to the very source that's most affected hasn't been lost on me.

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You have yet to provide reasoning for this claim in our discussion. You asked questions that I answered, and have merely asserted that the lack of information about aliens (if they exist) opens the door for much more, but you haven’t answered my question about what necessary Christian doctrines are overturned by the existence of aliens. If none are, then nothing has changed from the position that they don’t exist.

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We have been over this many times. Paul had several visions of Jesus (not just the one that resulted in his initial conversion).

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The historical apostle Paul never wrote that he had seen the Lord Jesus more than once, only that he had seen him… just like he wrote of the other apostles such as James and Peter - Jesus appeared to them in a vision and that’s how they knew of them.

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The point you didn’t address or refute is that there are many hundreds more references to other Old Testament books than 1 Enoch

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I never said there wasn’t. Only that there are more parallels or references to 1 Enoch in the New Testament than there is to any other Old Testament book. There are a lot of Genesis, Isaiah, Deuteronomy, and Ezekiel references too. Even some Zephaniah, Haggai, Habakkuk, and Malachi, and more. But there are more 1 Enoch parallels than all of them, but not all the other combined. Do you understand what I’m saying?

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so your claim is false

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No, you just don’t understand because you don’t want to acknowledge reality.

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They are recounting eye-witness accounts

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Have you moved the goal posts? Do you finally admit the gospels aren’t eyewitness accounts? You seem to be accepting they are at least secondhand storytelling. That’s a step in the right direction.

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That is factually untrue. Isaiah is the most referenced book in the New Testament, followed by the Psalms.

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You have no credibility because you don’t know what is contained within 1 Enoch and you don’t know the history so when you are reading the NT you don’t catch the references and allusions.

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There is no indication that any early Christian community universally thought that Enoch wrote the first book of Enoch,

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Damn you really hate God’s first prophet to be translated into a spirit being and taken to heaven.

There is no indication that any early Jewish community universally thought that the prophets wrote the prophetic material. The Samaritans rejected all the prophetic material and so did the Sadducees.

There’s no indication that any early Christian community universally thought that the historical Paul wrote Colossians, Ephesians, Titus, Timothy, and 2 Thessalonians. And many didn’t think the “real” author wrote 1/2 Peter, 1/2/3 John, Jude, James, and revelation. Many Christians thought those letters where bullshite pseudepigrapha.

What’s your point?

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While 1 Maccabees isn’t Scripture, it can be helpful historically, and it says there were no prophets during that time (about the 5th century—after Ezra/Nehemiah—through the 2nd)

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Well if some dude with sand up his arse who killed and burned goats for a living wrote it, it must be true!

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There was also conflict with the rule of calendar promoted (solar vs lunar), but that was pretty minor.

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I’m pretty sure you only know of the calendar dispute because of my posts on here.


But to say that was minor, man, I thought it educated you better than that. The fact that the Persians recreated the whole Jewish religion and used the lunar calendar made many Israelites believe the new temple was corrupt and wasn’t following God’s laws. If they didn’t know which day it really was, then the festivals couldn’t be celebrated on the right day. That calendar dispute is foundational for the book of 1 Enoch, when the stars (angels) didn’t appear at the right time of the year and were cast down from the firmament and punished. And we see the same imagery in the book of Revelation, and that stars falling from heaven imagery is nowhere in the canonical Old Testament but only in 1 Enoch.

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1 Enoch had it also been passed down from antiquity, but it wasn’t. It was only a few hundred years old by the time of Jesus

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You aren’t going to like this, but the truth is the majority of the Bible was only a few hundred years old. In the correspondence between the temple in Elephantine Egypt and the Jerusalem temple priests in the 4th century , there is no knowledge of the Torah or any books of the Bible or the prohibition of more than one temple or even the prohibition of worshipping other gods. The Jerusalem temple was fine to pay for the rebuilding of the temple in Egypt and they worshipped other gods including Anat at that temple.

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Jesus is speaking to the mode of existence of angels not entering into the estate of marriage that was given to human beings on earth. He was not speaking to Genesis 6 (which is debated whether or not it is talking about angels anyway), but to Genesis 2-3.

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Quote the passage in Genesis 2-3 talking about angels not getting married

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Jesus doesn’t talk about this at all in the passages you mentioned. You are making a false inference to Genesis 6.

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No dummy, I told you I’m talking about 1 Enoch. Genesis 6 doesn’t mention the punishment of the angels or that raping the human women and making a race of giants was even evil. It’s only explained in the Enochic literature. When Jesus tells the Sadducees they don’t know the scripture, he means just that. The Sadducees didn’t know 1 Enoch. They didn’t keep it as scripture. That scripture 1 Enoch would answer their question. In the resurrection the newly reborn spiritual bodied humans would be like the angels in heaven, not taking wives, as opposed to the angels who went to earth who did take wives and got into trouble for it.

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Jesus mentions the angels in heaven because they are eternal and do not die. Humans on earth die, and therefore marriage was given for procreation to keep life going on earth. In the resurrection, there will be no more need for procreation, and all who are raised will be eternally alive in their new bodies. Therefore, like the angels who do not procreate but live on perpetually, in the resurrected state, there will be no marriage.

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That’s a stretched out mental gymnastics pretzel even for you dude. Pathetic.

Ok let me help you out. I don’t like you, I’ll be honest, but you need to know that you are absolutely full of shite so you can better yourself.

Wouldn’t it make more sense that this:

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24Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

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Comes from 1 Enoch:

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And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves 12 with them in all their uncleanness

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"Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves wives.

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And in chapter 51:

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And in those days the earth will return that entrusted to it, and Sheol will return that entrusted to it, which it has received, and hell will return what it owes. 2. And he will choose the just and holy from among them, for the day has come that they be saved…. 4. And in those days the mountains will skip like rams, and the hills spring like lambs satisfied with milk, and they will all be angels in heaven.

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And chapter 62:

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And the just and the chosen will have risen from the earth, and will have ceased to cast down their faces, and will be clothed with the garments of glory. 16. And these will be the garments of life before the Lord of the spirits; and your garments will not become old, and your glory will not decrease before the Lord of the spirits

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You are using something else (naturalism?)

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I'm using reality.

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rather than biblical Christianity.

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if the content Bible comes into question, you can't just default back to this. That's your rhetorical problem.

You're trying to assume away the very issue being discussed.

I just keep pointing it out over and over again.

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That would be fine and dandy if you were arguing with someone who used your own arbitrary standard, but Christians are to operate within a biblical framework.

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You do it again, here.

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if the Bible doesn’t specifically mention aliens, then it opens up the door to almost anything, including Mormonism and other religions.

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Considering the Bible would have left out something so massive, this is where you have to land if you use logic.

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The Bible makes specific truth claims about reality that contradict the truth claims of all other religions and worldviews

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Those "specific truth claims" would be part of an incomplete work which leaves open the possibility of successive "specific truth claims".

I specifically used those two as examples as they would perfectly fit into this new problem created. The Bible, being an admitted incomplete work in this scenario, would no longer prohibit successor religions from being correct, because whatever additions they create would fall into the same void of being left out as aliens.

This is the precise problem of admitting the Bible is so lacking in completion.

You keep defaulting to the perfection of the Bible while ignoring this specific scenario makes the Bible objectively imperfect. That's why your defense fails every time. You're just trying to assume away the exact problem that's presented, and that's not logical.